• Hey there Guest!
    If you enjoy BCF and find our forum a useful resource, if you appreciate not having ads pop up all over the place and you want to ensure we can stay online - Please consider supporting with an "optional" low-cost annual subscription.
    **Upgrade Now**
    (PS: Subscribers don't see this UGLY banner)
Tips
Tips

87 Series III XJ6 won't Start

Michael J.

Jedi Warrior
Offline
I just finished reassembly after getting a valve job on the head. I used a XK's Unlimited camshaft tool to make sure valve timing was correct bioth before disassembly and during reassembly.

Ignition timing is set at 17 degrees BTDC as the service manual calls for set by aligning the degree mark on the harmonic balancer for 17 degrees and ensuring that the blade of the six sided "reluctor" being dead center on the pick-up module. Cap & rotor are new. The gap at the reluctor and pick-up is 0.009".

Pick-up resistance was 3.3K ohms. Battery voltage is correct. The amplifier checked out as did the coil following the fault finding procedure on page 17-5 of the Series III Service Manual.

I performed the Cold Start System test on page 19-9 and it checked out.

The engine turns over and fires like it wants to run, but abruptly stops as soon as the cold start injector shuts off.

The Auxillary Air Valve was tested with hot and cold. I had voltage when the engine turned over at the connector of 4.3 volts. Manual says battery voltage should be present, but it has some volts. Resistance is not the 33 ohms called for but is 20.2 ohms.

New valves are apparently not currently available. XK's Unlimited did not have a source to send it out for rebuild either. I placed the flat surface against an electric clothes iron and then placed the valve in the freezer. I saw very little movement of the sliding oriface plate. between both readings. It seems to move easily with a screwdriver pushing against it it slides and then returns to the same position.

Anyone work with these valves know what is normal? Does this valve sound defective? Can it prevent the engine starting?

What should I look at next? Thermotime switch, Water rail switch? Air Temp Sensor?

Fuel pump runs when engine is turning over.

I'm baffled.
 

jessebogan

Jedi Knight
Offline
Does it start and run when cranked? IE runs for 2 seconds and stops? Check that fuel pump continues to run after the 2 second start up signal. If the key is on, you should be able to push open the airflow meter flap(air filter canister removed)and you should hear fuel circulating in the fuel rail.This is the signal to the ECU that the engine is running. If this works, check the air inlet "elbow" from the AFM to the inlet manifold.It is easy to have a poor seal/fit at the short rubber hose right at the manifold connection.Make sure that the ground wires are connected at the rear of the intake manifold, and finally, check the wiring that runs along the top of the water rail. They are often brittle/broken. Let me know what you find. The extra air valve will not normally prevent the car from running. Look for vacuum leaks and the like.
 

LarryK

Yoda
Gold
Country flag
Offline
How long does it take for the cold start injector to quit?
What is your fuel pressure during the run? Are your engine injectors working? If the engine runs for a few minutes and stops ( when the cold start injector quits), check the thermotine switch as this actually is the sensor for the cold start injector. As for the AAV, never had to replace one. Did you have this problem before teardown?
To check pressure you will need a fuel pressure gauge and mount in line with the pressure regulator. 35-42 lbs.
 
OP
M

Michael J.

Jedi Warrior
Offline
It is like two or three cylinders fire before cutting out.

I had the Mrs. attempt to start it and used a mechanic's stethyscope to listen to the injectors. They are not pulsing.

The fuel pump runs with the ignition on and the air flow meter flap is pushed. The relay next to the diode pack hums like a seatbelt buzzer though and stops when the flasp is released.

I tried to start the engine with the flap party propped open and got the same result.

the ground wire lugs at the rear of the water rail are connected and tight.

Wiring appears in tack along the top of the water rail, but is brittle.

I tried changing relays with spares, but I don't have another diode pack. How does one check the diode pack other than swapping it out?

I tried swapping ignition coils by substitution. I think this is more of a fuel thing. I also tried swapping the power resister for the injectors.
 
OP
M

Michael J.

Jedi Warrior
Offline
All;

If you have an XJ6 you need to click on the link provided by Exotexs and print out the troubleshooting procedure for the fuel pump circuit. Even if you don't need it now, you will someday.

I followed all 8 steps. I had some problems with faded wire colors.

I'm going to have to repeat several steps to see what I missed. I reached step 8 and found no faults.

I'm also going to check the wiring along the fuel rail at both the thermotime switch and the water temp switch.
 

jessebogan

Jedi Knight
Offline
Disconnect the fuel line by the battery, activate the fuel pump with the flap, and take a fuel sample.I have seen a lot of series 3s with water in the tanks.Check the wiring at the coil. The trigger signal starts there I think.
 
OP
M

Michael J.

Jedi Warrior
Offline
I checked the injectors by putting a 12 vdc source directly to the connector and the injectors pulse (click) that way.

The problem is definately that the injectors are not pulsing.
 

LarryK

Yoda
Gold
Country flag
Offline
The relay that hums is the cold start relay. Have you checked the throttle switch? Behind the intake hose toward firewall facing engine. All you can see is the cap and wire connector operated by the spindle. Might check voltage and/or loosen and turn to see if it is just out of adjustment.
 

Exotexs

Jedi Knight
Country flag
Offline
Michael J. said:
All; If you have an XJ6 you need to click on the link provided by Exotexs and print out the troubleshooting procedure for the fuel pump circuit. Even if you don't need it now, you will someday.

that's the idea Michael J., give them bread and they will eat for 1 day, teach them how to bake bread and they will eat for a lifetime....


I would also check the Ignition Switch by wiggling the key when starting the engine, this is a known issue after 20 years of use. The contacts at the switch may be separating at the RUN position, shutting the engine off when you let go of the key. The Ignition Switch can be opened and restored. Here's a how-to link:

https://www.jag-lovers.org/snaps/snap_view.php3?id=1055809062

Ex
 
OP
M

Michael J.

Jedi Warrior
Offline
Does anyone have a listing for which wires connect to which connector pin by pin number at the Fuel Injection ECU?

I want to check continuity from the ECU to the various components.

I will also check the ignition switch as Exotexs suggests.
 
OP
M

Michael J.

Jedi Warrior
Offline
I was pretty sure that the problem was in the engine harness, which runs from a connector under the air cleaner near the fuel injection power resister and includes the wires for the ignition module and sends the ignition signal to the fuel injection ECU. I had removed the old harness, which was brittle and had some shorts and bad connections while waiting for the new harness to arrive.

I must be getting old, Now I can't remember which wires connect to the coil.

Can someone take a look and advise which wires (white, white and slate, white and black stripe) connect to which terminals, + or - on the coil?

Wiring diagram in the service manual does not give the wire colors for the ignition circuit.
 

LarryK

Yoda
Gold
Country flag
Offline
Haven't been around for a while. I know the white black is Neg and the white only is pos. Too late to look tonight, will check and send tomorrow.
 
OP
M

Michael J.

Jedi Warrior
Offline
Ok; Based on what Larry K suggested, White with Black stripe wires go to the negative post on the coil.

On Page 86-25 of the Series III Service Manual, Fig. 96 indicates both white wires connect to the coil positive terminal. It also confirms what Larry K said. If so, what connects to the Ballast Resister?

Where does the White with Slate (gray) stripe wire connect?

Looking at the Electrical Data Chart (Wiring Diagram), quadrant A, 1 (upper left of diagram), item 164 is listed as the Ballast Resister, but what is depicted seems to be for a 12 cylinder engine? The diagram depicts six wires connecting to the Ballast Resister. The six cylinder Ballast Resister has only two terminals.

In the upper r/h corner of the chart, the 6 cyl ignition from 1980 on is depicted. Wire color is not stated and the ballast resister is not depicted.

Can someone please look at their coil and tell me what color wires connect to the ballast resister and to the positive terminal of the coil?
 
OP
M

Michael J.

Jedi Warrior
Offline
I was able to look at the coil wiring on another Series III XJ6, but what I saw did not answer the question.

White & Black connected to the - terminal of the coil.

White from the ignition amplifier connected to the lower terminal on the Ballast Resister mounted on the coil.

White from the engine harness connected to the upper connector on the Ballast resister.

On this car, an '85 or possibly an '84, I did not see a white wire with slate stripe for the Tach.

I want to check the connection from the amplifier or coil to the Fuel injection ECU since the injectors do not pulse and I think that is the problem. What type of signal is at the connector at the trunk, voltage? How many volts should I expect at the connector pin?
 

bmurphy7369

Jedi Trainee
Offline
Hello Michael, and hello to all, been a while to say the least...

Make a list of everything you need as far as diagnostic specs, etc, I'll look them up tonight.

I just bought an '87 XJ6 VDP, had the exact symptoms you are having... looking at the coil and ballast confused (and distracted me away from the fuel starvation issue, or air/fuel issue)that was the culprit all along.. Unless you re-wired the engine bay, simplify this a bit.

IS THE CAR STARVING FOR FUEL??

To check this, pull the hose (the main hose going into the injector rail). If you have someone crank the engine, collect fuel hopefully (my guess is you will) into a jar until clear, then re-install, you've basically ruled out the bad gas/bad pump issue, but stay on the same tank to be safe. If it has not been driven for months and parked outside, pick a tank, drain it, and then fill it back to about half-full (or half-empty, but let's be optimistic).

Now, if you received and collected a bit of milky/rusty (or both) gas in the jar at the main F.I. line into the injector rail, consider your fuel filter, the trunk-mounted, alloy cannister, Trashed! Once water (or moisture even at its lower level creeps into the filter, the car will usually experience a bit of a fuel starvation issue. The water stays as intended in the filter, but it also blocks the good fuel, water being heavier chemically than gasoline. Replace it. I think I picked up a FRAM or Bosch Filter at AutoZone for around $17.00. You may even prefer, as I did until I got to "know the car" pick up a few cheap clear inline Fuel Filters, just to keep an eye on the flow. It also is a great way to backtrack in your diagnostics endeavour later to keep an eye out for a pinhole in the fuel system that is often overlooked the minute clean gas is reaching the injection rail. The plastic inline fuel filter is a personal choice, but it made me feel more in control and less like I was repeating the same steps over and over (chasing every possible issue, back and forth during no-start condition diagnosis, then questioning whether or not I should start over and tear down this or that again..). The fuel pump is simple to rule out (kinda...) You can start and run an '85-'87, providing all else is cooperating, on 35 PSI, probably less, but that's about the magic number. I've never checked PSI on an XJ Fuel pump, they usually are alive and pumping or dead, and it's not hard to tell the difference.
Have a friend hold their hand on the pump as you crank the engine (is the pump vibrating and showing signs of life while the key is being turned? It's probably ok at this point if you hear the "Hummm" and feel the Pump Vibrating slightly (as the car is being turned over with a key (trying to start the car, or while the car is running of course).
If you wonder as I did whether I felt body vibration or fuel pump activity (the not-trusting-my-senses issues that plagued me for two weeks this past May), then just unplug the Pos. or Neg. wire to the fuel pump. You'll feel alot less vibration and hum, and I think (without pulling the line and doing a fuel pressure check, you can move on, hook it back up and now get to the engine bay again, where you have to take a deep breath and say to yourself that you need to forget about all the usual suspects (In other words, to keep my sanity, I had to quit digging for that one little thing that I missed, such as a ballast wiring reversal, which I don't think is possible anyway, but that's how I was approaching this no-start condition.
Do you know the major electrics, beyond a doubt, have not been redone completely? No new harness installed, no new Computer installed, etc? If you know that this isn't the case, at best, pull the plugs, clean and gap them, do one last check on plug wire order (firing order) and then have a friend around again, with a can of starting fluid in hand. Don't use it to run the car, but make the car run with it if possible. BTW- Have your battery fully-charged and ready for alot of cranking, maybe 20 minutes or more, stopping every 20 or so seconds maximum to avoid (try to avoid anyway) burning out your starter.
The idea is to warm up the engine by consistent and continual cranking. This will get the Cold-Start (choke issue) Injector ruled out as the culprit if all continues as it did with my car.

If we know at this point that you received clean gas to the engine bay, there hasn't been a wiring restoration that may have gone horribly wrong, just a valve job unless I missed something, then the no-start probably is being caused by a bad fuel/emmissions component under the hood. If a friend spraying starter fluid into the trumpet-like hole at the beginning of the air intake makes the car run, until he quits spraying, even for a second or two, then fuel starvation/poor air-fuel mixture is more likely the issue.

Just to be sure that no fire occurs, try to have the friend who is spraying the ether/starting fluid run the car on it as you rev and work the gas pedal (your car is warming up at this point), then let the car almost die, letting the vapors leave the induction system, then spray rather heavily again and work the gas pedal, keeping the car running.

If you get this far, then you most likely have the same problem that I had. The MAF Unit was the sole culprit. The visual test (the tilt of the flap, and I can't remember what else, not appearing scorched inside I assume) checked out fine on my car, I skipped the complicated (at least I assumed it pointless and too complicated to pinpoint a bad Mass Air Flow Meter, and dismissed it as highly unlikely it just "died", therefore I moved on...) thoughts of testing of the MAF Unit itself bounced back and forth for another week in the back of my mind, but the MAF Unit "looked fine", and I wasn't about to waste time testing something else, only to further my frustration to the point of giving up on the car.

Sorry I'm rambling, long few days here, exhausted, but that's another story..

Let me tell you what happened in my case, do the above first but watch out for build-up of fumes while trying to "warm" the engine by keeping it running with ether. They can and do ignite, keep something (fire extinguisher and hose around while doing the warming up.

1) If you can keep the car "running" with a friend flooding the intake with starting fluid, try to do it long enough to warm the engine up a bit. This helped me to get around some questions about the Cold Start Injector/ Thermotime possibility issue that was nagging at me. If you "run the car" like this for a bit, the temp guage gets fairly close to operating level, then you more than likely just eliminated an ignition wiring mishap or a hidden, cracked wire as the cause of no-start, as well as got the car to skip over the cold-start question. If the car during this procedure continually wants to die as if it is waiting for the "spraying of the starting fluid" to stop so it can quit, has very little or no throttle while running on the starting fluid, then you are still experiencing exactly what I was experiencing.

2) Take a quick step out from behind the wheel, or have a third person ready, or let the sprayer of the fluid stop providing your "fuel" long enough to do this:
Disconnect the plug/harness from the MAF Unit.
(remove the retaining wire that surrounds the harness connector first, preferrably prior to getting the car warmed up). If your MAF is the culprit, you will immediately notice that you gain significantly in throttle reaction, less starting fluid is required to keep the engine running (or none at all) and the idle will jump up, in my car it hovered around 1600 to 1800 RPM. My car usually idled on its own for a few minutes at most, then died, but started again with a small spray of "ether/starting fluid" and ran for a minute or two more at high idle, on its own, then died again. Plug the MAF back in, that is if you are still with me and your XJ6 is behaving as mine was, and you will be back to the continual spraying to keep the engine running, and almost no throttle response at all, I think I mentioned above.

3) If you have the same results (as I laid out above) with your car, immediately swap out the MAF. You should be fine, not perfectly tuned since the MAF unit has to adjust to the car. Leaving the battery disconnected for 24 hours is what I was told to do to allow the computer to "reset" and to allow your car to "accept" the replaced MAF Unit. I did have to adjust the idle and tinker some to get it to what I considered to be a finely-tuned state, but the moment the new MAF (used, actually, $35 ebay purchase) was installed, the car idled on its own, didn't die and sputter as it had been doing the prior 3 weeks as I drove myself half-batty checking and re-checking the fuel pump, the ignition wiring, draining the tank and checking for clean fuel at the injector rail, etc.

4) This is important, or potentially a disaster-averting footnote anyway..
When I began working on the car, the MAF bellows hose to the throttle elbow was loose, the straight black rubber connector to the throttle assembly was not fitted well, but this turned out to be a blessing. It also told me that the prior owner almost had the "no-start" condition pegged and tracked to the MAF Unit... ;(
When the fumes from the repeated early attempts to start the car built up inside those areas (from the throttle, through the MAF unit, and into the air filter housing assembly) and a small backfire occurred not having the clamps completely and tightly secured may have saved me from a major engine fire. When you are using the starting fluid (even actually also when not I have since been told) during attempts to start a car which may be starving for fuel or have a fuel/air mixture failure, the fumes remain trapped inside the air intake and the exhaust port areas. The two or three times a backfire did happen, I quickly knocked the ribbed bellow hose loose and removed it as well as the rubber MAF to Throttle Connector loose, watched the ether burn off, then slowed the pace a bit a left some air gaps at those connections for easy access to extinguish a fire should it have erupted. It came close once, but I believe that the "flames" were the wet ether burning off, which is a fire, but much easier to extinguish than a piece of burning rubber, electrical wiring fires, etc..

5) I am not certain that warming up the car by supplying its fuel from a starting fluid nozzle was even necessary. That I guess was my way of totally ruling out the Cold-Start Injector as the cause of the no-start condition, even if my understanding of that diagnostic procedure was incorrect. You could and should just have a friend spray some starting fluid through the air intake, possibly just remove the entire air cleaner unit while doing this (someone else please chime in here, but I wish I had done so in retrospect, so does my crispy air filter which is now in the trash). Leaving yourself and the car a "quick release" for the two connectors by not tightening the clamps down won't hurt anything. Both of the hoses almost have to be forced into place anyway during normal installation. If you fully tighten and assemble this area, and a backfire sparked an internal flame, you would be forced to stop and unscrew the clamps to put out the flames. (On both of these air hoses I left the clamps very loose, both connect to the MAF UNIT, one is ribbed/accordian type, the other straight rubber tubing.) Another word on this, the backfire can potentially blow them 20 feet into the air. This happened to me recently while using starting fluid after running out of gas. I had the tank switch on the wrong setting (the RH tank was empty or contaminated), but not paying attention to which tank I was using, kept yelling for more starting fluid, convinced I was going to fire the car up at any moment. Then the backfire came and the intake parts that blew out of the engine bay landed about 40 feet from the car.

ANOTHER QUICK THOUGHT:

Before you embark on more hardcore diagnostics, have you checked inside the passenger door to be sure that the inertia (fuel-cutout) switch did not trip to the cut-out mode? I'll have to look at mine later today, but I believe it should be pulled UP completely. Again, Exotexs, Larry, Steve, anyone, corrections may be needed here, but I think I would just rule that out before breaking a sweat on whatever you decide to do next.

Sorry about the several confusing sentences above, I'll get some rest and edit mistakes later, but I hope this gives you an idea of what I went through (90% of my effort was spent chasing electrical shorts, major issues that could cause all of the same symptoms, but pulling one plug solved the mystery and restored what was left of my sanity (and trust me, Jaguar diagnostics will eat up sanity very quickly...) Hope I get a reply saying your car has been running for weeks now.. Best Regards,

Brian :savewave:
 

LarryK

Yoda
Gold
Country flag
Offline
White/slate/blue goes from - coil to tach and distributor. White from + coil to ballast resistor to ignition. Soory for being late, been busy.
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
J Question about Series III XJ6 Motor in E Type? Jaguar 2
D XJ6 series III front end rattle Jaguar 5
M 87 Series III XJ6 Rough Running Jaguar 16
M 4.2 Liter Engine Serial Number in a Series III XJ6 Jaguar 2
M Alternator or Battery Problem on 87 XJ6 Series III Jaguar 5
M Tricks for Alternator Removal 87 XJ6 Series III? Jaguar 8
wkilleffer Series III XJ6 a/c amp questions Jaguar 1
bmurphy7369 Need some rust repair advice for Series III XJ6 Jaguar 8
M Photos Needed of Series III E-Type Engine Oil Filter Clearance at Exhaust Manifold Jaguar 1
N GT6 GT6 I II III Series rear vent window sizes Triumph 4
D Series III E-Type Overider Rubber Installation Jaguar 2
Nunyas Patrolicious - 1973 Land Rover Series III Other Cars 1
toysrrus Series III Rdstr. Top Bows [Grey] & Vinyl [Blk] Top For Sale. Jaguar 4
D Series III side marker to blinker conversion Jaguar 2
Bruce Bowker Series III E Type Jaguar 9
M Looking for a E Type Series III Bell Housing Jaguar 1
M Series III XJ-6 4.2 Liter Cylinder Head removal Jaguar 7
Sprocket Series III factory service manuals - $50 Jaguar 0
bmurphy7369 Late Series III motor/FI into a Late Series II XJ? Jaguar 5
S Easiest way to disconnect Tach on XKE Series III Jaguar 4
S Bouncing Tach on Series III E-Type Jaguar 4
P Correct steering wheel for Series III Sunbeam (Rootes) 3
G Series III E-Type problem to look out for Jaguar 1
AngliaGT Jeep J Series Pickups Spotted 0
B Land Rover Series 3 Wiring Diagrams Rover / Land Rover 0
sim A-series Engine Block Search Spridgets 2
Deanrobert Xke series lll cooling issues Jaguar 5
F For Sale E Type Series II front and rear bumpers good condition Jaguar Classifieds 0
zoohow TR2/3/3A lights in series Triumph 2
LD-Ordie Series II gear lube question Rover / Land Rover 3
PAUL161 T-Series T Series Starters MG 0
PAUL161 T-Series T series tierod ends MG 2
O XKE series 2 thermo fan switch bung stud repair. Jaguar 9
M Front caliper rebuild 1970 Series 2 E-Type Jaguar 0
A Making an A-series engine stand adaptor fitting Spridgets 2
R For Sale Fidanza Aluminum Flywheel for 1275 A-Series Spridgets Classified 0
L BMC A-series: Oil in coolant British Motor Corp 6
6 SOLD!! For sale 1966 Series 1 FHC $85,000.00 Jaguar Classifieds 3
ROARRR Series 2 XJ6 with cert for chev eng for parts or refurb Jaguar Classifieds 4
N Wanted Spats - XK Series? Jaguar Classifieds 4
S Series 1/2 Wiper Motor Needed Rover / Land Rover 0
steveg HS vs HD series carbs Austin Healey 2
W XJ6 Series I bumper swap to Series II Jaguar 0
S For Sale Mg t-series crankshaft tb tc td tf 1250 1500 MG Classifieds 0
D Source for XJ6c Series ll Ignition key blanks & remote Jaguar 1
Lin Fairly new YouTube series on AH100 restoration Austin Healey 0
H Lotus Super 7 series 2 Race car for sale Lotus 0
T For Sale Gear reduction starter fits jaguar 3.8 340 mark series 3.8l 3.4l - $100 Jaguar Classifieds 0
steveg HD series Jet Centering - a Caution Austin Healey 19
M E-type series 1 plastic dash vents Jaguar 1

Similar threads

Top