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Needed: A title for a BN7

BoyRacer

Jedi Warrior
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About 16-17 years ago I bought a 2 seater chassis - with no title. It had been chopped up pretty good to accept a V-8 engine. Foot wells, motor mounts, shroud supports, and a lot of other chassis sheet metal had been cut up, cut out, or just plain ruined. At the time, I bought it for the exterior sheet metal and running gear. Now that we have Kilmartin that makes all of those chassis replacement panels that I need to restore this car, I am bringing this car back to life. I want to drive it on the street next summer, but I have no title. Anyone out there have a title to a BN7 title they would sell - or know someone with a title to a totaled, or parted out BN7? Thanks, Richard
 
Possible options other than getting a good title from another car: I know my state and many others offer what is called a "bonded title" you don't have a title but provide some proof of ownership, they give you what is essentially a provisional title for a period of years (I think three in Nebraska), backed up by a bond for the stated value of the car, which of course you have to buy. There are also companies that claim to be able to acquire a title for you for a fee, generally by getting it titled in states with less stringent title requirements, or establishing a paper trail of ownership from a state that doesn't require titles for old cars, then "selling" the car to you on paper so you can title it.
 
No problem and I just got a title in VT for a 1947 BSA

See the VT DOT website for all the info and forms. I sent in a Bill of Sale, their registration form, and sales tax, and 2 weeks later a transferable registration good for your own state arrived in the post

Naturally it cannot be a stolen vehicle as they check the VIN, but if a straight up deal you will have no problem at all.
Difficult to believe, but true
 
I think the question here is: do you still have the VIN tag on the firewall? If you have the VIN you should be able to get a title without too much trouble. If not, then you will have to buy another title from a demolished car.
Keith
 
Richard,

This issue makes me a bit uncomfortable. "Buying a title" separate from the car that goes with it, and then applying it to a different car whose title/VIN has been lost, seems, ahem, somehow questionable. I think that we're each all in favor of rescuing as many Healeys as possible, but if we start down the road of making more Healeys than currently exist, or of recreating Healeys by rounding up used parts and reproduction parts, we are rendering useless the whole identity and history of the cars?

I suppose that this subject could quickly get philosophical along the lines of what constitutes a car: The frame? The car number? A piece of paper that we call the title? There are no doubt legal issues involved, but there is also the question of the integrity of the object for those of us who cherish them.

For example, let's say that someone knew of a two-seat tri-carb (only 355 made) that had been written off, but they were able to obtain just the VIN plate, or maybe just the title. They could then collect a bunch of reproduction parts, and maybe a few originals parts, and make one more from those spares. Is it one of the 355, or is it number 356 bearing the number of one of the original 355? I don't know the definitely answer to that question, and I'm not completely sure that there is a definitive answer, but it seems to me that the "right thing" to do is to obtain a new VIN, assigned by the state, for this newly recreated automobile, even if some/many of its parts are original old parts.

You're an attorney. Can you offer any insights on this dilemma?
 
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Yes Reid, your are getting too philosophical. If I was trying to recreate a 100-M, or 100-S, or a tri-carb BN7, or that Austin Healey that O J Simpson drove on LA freeways in that low speed chase, then I would be going down that slippery slope to forgery car ****. But, what I do have is a genuine 2-seater chassis (it is a BN7 or a late BN6 chassis), and I have all the other proper 3000 components to correctly assemble a 2-seater 3000. Therefore I would prefer a BN7 title rather than a BN6 title.
The car had no tags, VIN or otherwise. So even if I find the guy I bought it from 17 years ago, how is it possible to identify the chassis in such a fashion that DMV would accept a Bill of Sale as proof of identification? That is simply not an option.
I am sure, in some convoluted way, I can get a document from DMV to get the car registered. After all, I am an attorney and I can get it done. But, I am also a Healey guy ---I would rather have a title that says BN7.
Having said all of this, I do have a title to a BT7 that was parted out by Stan Huntley in the 1980's when he owned FASPEC here in Portland. I could use that title, stamp a new VIN tag to match the numbers (Moss sells the plates and I have the correct size stamps), but it would say BT7. I want a VIN plate that says BN7 because the car is a 2-seater. In that sense, I guess you could say I am a purist. I am not even building this car to sell. It will be my personalized resto-mod that I intend to drive the wheels off over the next 20 years and I want it to be a BN7. Anyone want to trade titles?
 
I think the question i would have to ask you! If this is going to be a personal "Mod" Healey, then why is having a title stating it is a BN7 so important? When it comes time to sell the car, and let's be honest! At some point and time it will be sold. Then the buyer needs to be told it was built from a bunch of original spare's from other cars and sources to make a complete car. I would think that a salvage title would be more in keeping with a car of this nature.
 
Richard, couldn't you use the number stamped on the RF shock platform to obtain the BMIHT certificate, indicating what the original VIN was, and then follow through with getting a title in one of the states where a car is sold on the bill of sale?

This would acheive your goal of getting an appropriate title, and settle Reid's feathers a bit too ;)

Funny you mention Stan Huntley; I hadn't thought about him in ages! Only time I can ever recall seeing him was at the Monterey Historics, but he sure had some nice cars__seems like he used to put Borranis on everything, or was it just one set that kept getting passed around!?!? Still reminded me of some good memories, so thanks for that.

I have a BN6 (L2280?) title I've been holding onto; the chassis (and body too, for that matter) was just a wreck, and I scrapped it in 1985. I have aspirations of building a tube frame, maybe with 4-wheel independent suspension, maybe with BMW 3.2 I-6 power, but using an aluminum Healey body. Won't be original, won't be a kit car, but will be fun and challenging to construct. I already have a 15 ton 1-shot bender...

Good luck, but I'm not worried that you'll acheive your goal, seems that all you need, is to decide to do it!
 
Reminds me of being in a museum last year looking at a Ferrari 250GT when someone mentioned that the factory built 25, and there are now 30 surviving.
 
Funny you mention this but not too long ago I had a similar problem with my BN7. I bought the car with a salvaged car title that stated it was a BT7, not a BN7. I sent off to the Heritage trust with the body number and engine number and they gave me a Heritage trust certificate with the correct BN7 VIN number. With that I tried to apply for a corrected title from the Missouri DMV. Unfortunately they didn't recognize the British Heritage Trust as a valid source for a corrected title. Since I had a correct title, only for a BT7, I left it at that and didn't pursue it. I know other states have less stringent DMV and wish you luck obtaining the correct title. I do remember Clarke Spares had the correct size letters and numbers and they did recognize the Heritage certificate and made me a copy of the correct VIN plate. I always thought I'd save it in case I ever wanted to have the car judged, but I never did.
 
Im sure you will find that every state and certainly the feds has a law prohibiting taking a factory issued VIN and moving it to another car. It is just illegal to do.
 
New request. Anyone have a VIN tag for a BN7 that is long gone?
 
To respond to Healey Z with this question. Are you saying that if one takes the VIN tag off a rusted chassis and attaches it to a new Jule chassis, it is illegal? If so, there are a lot of crooks in our club. Please don't rat us out to the Feds.
 
To respond to Healey Z with this question. Are you saying that if one takes the VIN tag off a rusted chassis and attaches it to a new Jule chassis, it is illegal? If so, there are a lot of crooks in our club. Please don't rat us out to the Feds.
If the rusted chassis is destroyed there's no problem. On a BJ8, the owner should have the RH shock tower number cut out and sent back with the Jule Chassis when it's delivered.
 
Here is the best work I have seen on VIN fraud. LINK


Straight to the point: Let there be no doubt that it is illegal to tamper with a VIN on a vehicle or even the parts of a vehicle.
This is not an all inclusive list of state laws/statutes. It is merely a sampling. Do not assume because a state is not mentioned here that there are no such laws in that state (country).


Legal research/reference provided by Sam Mamola, J.D.


18 USCS § 2321


TITLE 18. CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I. CRIMES
CHAPTER 113. STOLEN PROPERTY


18 USCS § 2321 (2003)


§ 2321. Trafficking in certain motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts


(a) Whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.


107 A.L.R.5th 567


SUMMARY: Illegally removing or altering a vehicle identification number (VIN) or selling or possessing a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN constitutes a crime in most states. In order to impose liability, state courts normally require a culpable mental state on the part of the defendant in altering or removing a VIN or in possessing a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN. Some states, however, do not require any culpable mental state on the part of the defendant when selling a vehicle or vehicle part with a removed or altered VIN.


For example, in State v. Smith, 972 S.W.2d 476, 107 A.L.R.5th 791 (Mo. Ct. App. W.D. 1998), the defendant sold a vehicle that was subsequently found to have an altered VIN. The defendant claimed the state was required to establish that he had knowledge of the VIN alteration at the time the sale occurred. The court held that while knowledge was required for possessing a vehicle with an altered VIN, the statute's plain language indicated that knowledge was not required when selling a vehicle with an altered VIN.


Most state courts held that knowledge of the altered or removed VIN is required before the defendant can be convicted of altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN ( § 10[a] ). However, a few courts have concluded that from a plain reading of the applicable statute, knowledge of the altered or removed VIN is not required when altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN ( § 10 ). Courts singled out a number of particular circumstances as tending to establish knowledge of an altered or removed VIN on the part of the defendant. For instance, knowledge was found to exist where there is physical evidence of the VIN alteration as well as proof the defendant tried to sell the vehicle or had possession of the vehicle for a long period of time ( § 10[c] ). Knowledge was also proved by evidence that the defendant was warned of a missing or altered VIN and did not correct the defect or where the police found evidence of a "chop shop" and other dismantled vehicle parts in the defendant's possession ( § 10[c] ). To the contrary, courts found the defendant did not have knowledge of an altered or removed VIN where, although there was evidence of possession or sale of the vehicle, there was no direct or physical evidence the defendant altered or removed the VIN ( § 10[d] ). Knowledge was also not proved where the defendant merely leased a building to a person operating a "chop shop" and did not know what was happening inside the building ( § 10[d] ).


Along with the culpable mental state requirement, courts also addressed the criminal conduct involved in altering or removing a VIN or possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN. For example, state courts found that a VIN was altered or removed even if the concealed VIN was not removed or the vehicle bore an additional VIN not affixed by the manufacturer ( § 12[a] ).


Delaware:


In Tackett v. State, 416 A.2d 1225 (Del. 1980), the court held that two statutes: (1) the possession of a vehicle with a removed VIN (Del. Code Ann. tit. 21, § 6709); and (2) the possession of a vehicle with knowledge that the VIN is falsified with intent to misrepresent the identity (Del. Code Ann. tit. 21, § 6705(d)) were not unconstitutionally vague. The court noted that the standard for judging the certainty of a criminal statute is whether it is specific enough to give notice to a person of ordinary intelligence of the conduct prohibited. Consequently, the court found Del. Code Ann. tit. 21, § 6705(d) clearly comports with constitutional standards of specificity in that the statute unambiguously describes both the conduct prohibited and the requisite states of mind. The court also found that Del. Code Ann. tit. 21, § 6709 was not vague as applied to this case because the indictment charged that the defendant knew of the altered VINs; the defendant was in the auto repair business and a former employee of a major automaker, giving rise to a fair inference that he was familiar with confidential VINs; and the defendant's knowledge that the VINs had been altered was charged and proven.


New York:


The court held in People v. Giese, 95 Misc. 2d 792, 408 N.Y.S.2d 693 (Sup 1978), order aff'd without published op, 68 A.D.2d 1019, 414 N.Y.S.2d 947 (2d Dep't 1979), that federal law (Federal Safety Act, 15 U.S.C.A. §§ 1381 et seq. (Repl.; see 49 U.S.C.A. §§ 30101 et seq.)) did not preempt N.Y. Penal Law § 170.70, which makes it illegal to possess a VIN that has been removed from a vehicle or vehicle part to which the VIN was affixed by the manufacturer in accordance with the provisions of the Federal Motor Vehicle and Information Cost Savings Act. The court noted that the promulgation of the safety standards cannot be said to be so pervasive of the area to prevent the state of New York from enacting and enforcing laws with respect to the illegal possession of VIN plates in order to reduce the incidence of motor vehicle theft. Consequently, the court held that such legislation was not in conflict with the purpose or language of the Federal Safety Act.


Maryland:


In interpreting Md. Ann. Code art. 66 1/2, § 73 (1957), which prohibits a person from knowingly possessing or selling a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN, for the purpose of concealing or misrepresenting the identity of the vehicle or vehicle part, the court in Greenway v. State, 8 Md. App. 194, 259 A.2d 89 (1969), concluded that "knowingly" as used in the statute means "having knowledge." A person thus may be found to have knowledge by evidence establishing that one has actual or direct knowledge of the VIN removal or alteration. For example, explained the court, actual knowledge is when one removes or alters the number personally, while direct knowledge is when one admits to knowing that the number has been removed or altered, and has no reasonable nonculpable explanation as to why it has been removed or altered.


Missouri:


The court in State v. Smith, 972 S.W.2d 476, 107 A.L.R.5th 791 (Mo. Ct. App. W.D. 1998), held that the plain language of Mo. Rev. Stat. §§ 301.390.1, 301.390.6 (1994) does not require criminal intent when selling a vehicle with an altered or removed VIN. The statute's language prohibits a person from selling or offering for sale, or knowingly having the custody or possession of a motor vehicle with an altered or removed VIN. The court said that the legislature clearly and deliberately wrote the statute so that "knowingly" refers only to the crime of custody or possession, and not to the crime of selling or offering for sale. The requirement that the defendant know the VIN was altered or removed in order to be convicted thus applies only to the crime of custody or possession, and not to the crime of sale.


Knowledge found:


The courts in the following cases held that the defendant knowingly altered or removed a vehicle identification number (VIN) or sold or possessed a vehicle or vehicle part knowing it had an altered or removed VIN.
 
I would like to make this very clear, Jule Enterprises has never created a car, all cars that we have re-chassis are authentic Austin Healeys. We work from the original car. Jule chassis is a perfomance improvement product as is base coat clear coat paint work, Dennis Welsh aluminum heads, Dayton Wire wheels, radial tires etc. These items do not make a car a fake and are not illegal.
Many owners have lost their paperwork over the years. The Ministry of Transport has system to address this. The British Heritage document is usually very helpful in achieving this.
A salvage title can never be licensed for the road in Canada so a salvage title makes the car worthless here.
Martin Jansen, Jule enterprises
 
Very troubling...Switching vin tags, titles, shock tower numbers, trying to equate a radial tire with a complete re chassis. Let's face it, We have some real moral issues going on here! Don't get me wrong! I think it is great people are building cars of all types.... and i love jule products!..... but let's be honest here!
 
I guess I still don't understand why the stamped number on Richard's chassis can't be used to obtain the Heritage Certificate, then apply for a title for the chassis' original VIN. I see nothing untoward about this, and it puts another Healey on the road__there are LOTS of cars lacking their complete original bodies (mine) or currently fitted with non-original engines (mine again, though I do have the original 2.6).

Fortunately, a "salvage or rebuilt" title isn't the death knoll for a car in the US (at least for most of it, and I am unaware of states excepting this).

Just my own observation, but I do not feel that Richard's trying to pull off a fraud, as I believe he'd be smart enough to not broadcast it on a public forum, I just think he was looking for the easiest way to get a car on the road with the least amount of hassle__that kind of backfired...

I won't deny that there can be unscrupulous motives, but I fail to think his reason is sinister.

I fully understand Martin Jansen's disclaimer since his product was mentioned, and I did not know that a "salvage" title had that ramification in Canada.
 
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