TR4/4A Rear Oil Galley Plug Sealing

[ghawk16]

So, I've been fighting a leak for a while. I removed the transmission with engine in car using a tranny jack which is actually easy than pulling the whole engine IMHO. I bought some new aluminum plugs from TRF, some thread sealant and put the new plug in. I let it sit for a day, threw everything back together today, started the car and it still leaks. My concern is, the plug that was in before was easy to remove because it wasn't screwed all the way so extracting it with a bolt remover was easy. The new one I put in I cranked down with the pliers and added the high temp thread sealant. So I KNOW it's going to be much tougher to remove. I'm annoyed to say the least but does anyone have any recs for sealant? How about using good ol red gasket sealant (RTV) on the threads? Seems to work everywhere else on the car! I've seen on the other forums that people used SAS Brake & Air sealant (not readily available here) and Wellseal and that's it. If I'm going to tear this thing apart again I want to make sure I seal it. Maybe I should just JB Weld it. Kidding! But it has crossed my mind. Thoughts? Next is still figuring out my blinker problem I posted about back in...2018?

 

[CJD]

Did you run a tap through the threads and clean completely dry with brake or carb cleaner? One issue with those plugs is they are straight thread, not tapered like a pipe thread. For that reason you have to clean the threads completely and use a gap filling type sealant. I would have thought your thread sealant would work, so long as the threads were clean. red RTV is not the best for oil applications. The black RTV would be better. Also pipe sealant, gasket maker, and the like. JB weld should also work.

 

[ghawk16]

Did you run a tap through the threads and clean completely dry with brake or carb cleaner? One issue with those plugs is they are straight thread, not tapered like a pipe thread. For that reason you have to clean the threads completely and use a gap filling type sealant. I would have thought your thread sealant would work, so long as the threads were clean. red RTV is not the best for oil applications. The black RTV would be better. Also pipe sealant, gasket maker, and the like. JB weld should also work.

I did clean them thoroughly with a brush, then used a toothbrush with brake cleaner. Made sure they were squeaky clean! I lubed up the threads GOOD too. Made sure not to get too much on the internal side, but enough to hopefully seal on the sealing edge. So red gasket sealant isn't good for oil? I've been using it on my oil pan and it's worked great. And quite a few people here recommended it. Thought it was the same as black, but more high temp. My dad mentioned running the plugs thru a pipe thread tap to taper the plug but as anyone been able to find a plug at a local plumbing store anywhere that has fully tapered threads? I'm sure it's some odd size.

 

[bobhustead]

Don't try to change the threads. Is there a copper washer under the head of the plug?
Bob

 

[LarryK]

I use hard permatex on anything that can leak, and all else fails. Figure I am not taking it apart again seal it permanent. Might be hard to get back out down the road, but you bet it's sealed. Also figure if I still have the car, I know what I did.

 

[bobhustead]

I had the impression from your earlier post that you were troubled by the plug in the gallery leading to the filter, which appeared in the Moss catalogue to have a head. I see from your photos that this is not the problem and no washer would be involved. Still, don't change the threads.
Bob

 

[ghawk16]

I had the impression from your earlier post that you were troubled by the plug in the gallery leading to the filter, which appeared in the Moss catalogue to have a head. I see from your photos that this is not the problem and no washer would be involved. Still, don't change the threads.
Bob

Correct. I wouldnt be changing the threads on the block, but trying to find a plug with full tapered threads so it fills in more of the void between the threads.

 

[CJD]

Then thicker sealer is in order.

And yes, red RTV is not recommended for oil applications. The lighter the oil, the quicker it breaks down. As with many applications...it will work with oil...just there are better, recommended choices. The black RTV is made for oil pans and diff covers.

The problem with opening up the threads to taper pipe threads is finding a plug that clears the flywheel. As long as you can it will work...but there is no reason you cannot get the OEM style plug to work with the right sealant.

 

[ghawk16]

Then thicker sealer is in order.

And yes, red RTV is not recommended for oil applications. The lighter the oil, the quicker it breaks down. As with many applications...it will work with oil...just there are better, recommended choices. The black RTV is made for oil pans and diff covers.

The problem with opening up the threads to taper pipe threads is finding a plug that clears the flywheel. As long as you can it will work...but there is no reason you cannot get the OEM style plug to work with the right sealant.

Well...guess we shall see if my oil pan leaks with red gasket maker. If it does at least that is much easier to fix. I ordered some Hondabond on Amazon as that seems to be what a lot of people rave about if you want a good seal. Ill be waiting a couple weeks to retackle this. May as well take out the gauges and have them shipped off for refurb. Same with the brake and clutch slave cylinders as they are oozing a bit. Get some brass sleeves put in. What else can I tackle? Hmmmm...altenator/generator? Haha

 

[CJD]

If you have already used the red, then don't worry about it. As long as you don't have globs hanging inside the pan it will work fine. Sounds like you'll have a mechanically new car when you're done!

 

[ghawk16]

If you have already used the red, then don't worry about it. As long as you don't have globs hanging inside the pan it will work fine. Sounds like you'll have a mechanically new car when you're done!

Well...the rest of the car is practically new! HAHA The 4 gauges work, the tach works, but the speedometer is sticky. I've also been stuck out after dark a couple of times and can barely read the gauges so some LED's might be in order. First I have to get the darn blinkers to work. I've done some troubleshooting and I think it's a crap flasher (second one) and maybe voltage stabilizer. All my wiring is right with no shorts, switch is good and it's a new harness.

But...first...need to get this plug fixed. So, as I expected the new plug wouldn't come out as I had it TIGHT. I tried drilling it out carefully. Well...didn't go as planned. So what are options? Enlarge the hole and tap new threads and get a tapered plug with a hex socket in it? Use a tapered aluminum plug and hammer it in?

The other issue will be cleaning all the old aluminum and metal filings out of the track. I will have to change the oil, I know that. Thing that stinks is I JUST changed the oil with Brad Penn 10W-40 as this is it's FIRST oil change after the break in oil. Think I can recycle/reuse the oil and filter it somehow? I reallllly don't want BRAND NEW oil going to waste. Zero miles on it. Going to have to figure out how to flush out the big stuff. Thinking a metal rod like a gun cleaner with some cloth and get a hollow rod and put that in it, then once inserted push the cloth end out and pull so it's only catching on the pulling out movement.

Sorry...a lot in this post.

 

[CJD]

Bummer.

I know you’re wanting the “it’ll be fine” answer. Unfortunately, it probably won’t. That gallery supplies the crankshaft and rocker shaft. The drilling’s are not going into the pan...rather, they are going right to the crank journals. To be honest, if it were just aluminum, I might be tempted to run it, as aluminum is soft and steel usually beats aluminum. If you got ANY cast iron in the gallery, though, just think for a bit about sharp, curly bits of cast iron being held against your fresh crank journal with 70psi pressure.

There is only one right answer, and that is that the engine has to come back apart to clear the galleries.

There is a “might work” answer...assuming you were very careful to minimize the swarf. You could remove the last Gallery plug on the left side of the block and blow air through there. Alternate between carb cleaner and air until you are absolutely certain you have every tiny bit of swarf. If any swarf made it forward of the last plug, then this will blow the swarf deeper into the gallery and also trash the middle crank bearing.

Even if it’s a low chance of iron in the gallery...the ramifications if there is any are quite severe. They include: Loss of crank, loss of bearings, scored sleeves, loss of rockers and shaft, loss of cam and lifters. I feel for you as it is a tough decision. If you go the right way, all you are out is a gasket set and your time.

 

[ghawk16]

Bummer.

I know you’re wanting the “it’ll be fine” answer.

Nope definitely wasn't expecting the "it'll be fine" answer. I knew it was going to be work. Irritates me that the plug didn't hold the first time. I'm just going to throw the FW/Clutch/PP back in, bolt up the tranny so the engine has rear support, drain all fluids and deal with it this winter. I'm in an apartment and my garage is quite big, but lighting isn't the best and just don't want to do it here. I'll wait till I buy my house and do it then. Not like it was getting registered this year with the whole COVID thing anyway since all the county offices shut down. It is a bummer to be taking apart a 500mi driven engine but I'll take it to an engine shop once it's all torn down and have them weld that thing shut so I KNOW it doesn't leak. But then I'll probably get a head gasket leak or somewhere else since it's all good and sealed now.

Good thing is, like you said, it's mostly just a gasket set. Should be able to reuse my ARP head bolts as long as they aren't too stretched but all my bearings will still be good! And time...something I don't have right now or care to spend working on this car. Guess I'll get the frame looked at too and have all the other minor things addressed when the engine is out. Constant project/money pit! HAHA Thanks for all your help! Ohhh...maybe a V8?

 

[CJD]

All your studs will be fine. The ARP for at least the next 3 dozen rebuilds! Sorry about the trouble, but I think you're making the right decision. One thing, I'd advise against welding the plug in. Over time the stress from the weld will likely cause a crack. If you really don't want to mess with the aluminum plugs any more, then go the pipe plug route. Just use a plug that you are sure will not block the rocker shaft oil hole, or foul the flywheel on the back side.

When you get around to cleaning the gallery...best to use different size rifle cleaning brushes. At least remove the crank, side gallery plugs, front plug (which means the front engine plate), and rocker shaft. Everything else can stay assembled. All cleaning should be done from front to rear, and from bearing journals to gallery. The rocker shaft feed need only be blown downward with solvent and air.

 

[ghawk16]

All your studs will be fine. The ARP for at least the next 3 dozen rebuilds! Sorry about the trouble, but I think you're making the right decision. One thing, I'd advise against welding the plug in. Over time the stress from the weld will likely cause a crack. If you really don't want to mess with the aluminum plugs any more, then go the pipe plug route. Just use a plug that you are sure will not block the rocker shaft oil hole, or foul the flywheel on the back side.

When you get around to cleaning the gallery...best to use different size rifle cleaning brushes. At least remove the crank, side gallery plugs, front plug (which means the front engine plate), and rocker shaft. Everything else can stay assembled. All cleaning should be done from front to rear, and from bearing journals to gallery. The rocker shaft feed need only be blown downward with solvent and air.

It is what it is. Not everything can be perfect and no point in getting upset. Old me would have. New me...what good does it serve? To me it's just another project and that's fine. I understand the welding issue and I was probably just going to have them re-tap the hole so I can use a plug with a hex socket so if it does leak again it's easier to take out and reseal. Be nice to use a bolt with washer but not enough clearance.Of course now I bet my rear main seal will leak even tho it's nice and dry now. Luckily I have the upgraded one so should be easier to reseal. But it'll be fun to tear apart and put back together. Biggest thing is I want to try and leave untouched is the 89mm sleeves and figure 8 gaskets so I don't have to try and gap them again. That was a PITA. No reason those should come out, right?

 

[CJD]

The sleeves can definitely stay in place. And, actually, if you are careful in taping the rod journals on the crank, you can likely just push the pistons up and leave the head and pistons in place...although I have not tried that myself. In theory it can be done.

 

[DavidApp]

Could you use a magnet on a rod in the oil gallery to collect any cast iron filings if any?

If you retap to a tapered pipe thread there are brass plugs with an internal hex you could use to seal it up.

Understand the situation I had a leak from my front plug. That one came out easily with an extractor. Probable why it was leaking in the first place.

David

 

[ghawk16]

Could you use a magnet on a rod in the oil gallery to collect any cast iron filings if any?

If you retap to a tapered pipe thread there are brass plugs with an internal hex you could use to seal it up.

Understand the situation I had a leak from my front plug. That one came out easily with an extractor. Probable why it was leaking in the first place.

David

I thought about that. Problem is, the plug was aluminum and there are lots little bits of that as well. Why risk it? If I try and flush it may push it in to the other little crevices and come out later on. There is no rush on this. Have had the car since 2002. Finished it in 2018. Didn't drive it in 2019 since I was traveling and 2020 I can't register it. So I'll just take another year to get it really dialed in and hopefully 2021 I can fully enjoy it. But yes, re tapping and having a brass or some sort of plug is what my goal is. Tearing it down will be easy. Just got to make sure I mark the bearings, chains, sprockets and all that before taking apart since I know it's all in time right now and that it all goes back together the same way it came apart.

 

[DavidApp]

While it is apart you may want to look at the timing chain cover. This is what I found when I had my one back apart early this year. Do not know if I missed it when I did the rebuild or it was the result of a new tension spring.

David

 

[ghawk16]

While it is apart you may want to look at the timing chain cover. This is what I found when I had my one back apart early this year. Do not know if I missed it when I did the rebuild or it was the result of a new tension spring.

David

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Yeah, everything will be looked at. Engine was completely rebuilt 500mi ago with new pretty much everything, cleaned, lightened and balanced some stuff because why not. Good thing is when I I first started it I think it ran WAY too hot so may have cooked it a little so the nice thing is itll give me a chance to clean it out again as Ive noticed some brown film in places from it being overheated. I have it dialed in now so taking it apart and putting it back together should be easy...as long as I can get it sealed again. But I probably just jinxed it by saying it would be easy. Haha. Till then...maybe Ill start a new thread when I start the tear down. Get some input!