TR4/4A Cylinder Head Time For More Tools?

[KVH]

Instead of taking my cylinder head into a shop to be tested (nothing was wrong with it to my knowledge), what if I go to Harbor Freight, buy a valve spring compressor, remove and clean the valves, and then measure and check the valve dimensions and condition myself, and install if I see no problems.

Being a relative novice (to a degree), would that be a foolish thing to do? Should I just take it to the shop?

I'm not immediately seeing why I should invest $300 in a head inspection for a head that was not giving me any problems. thx

 

[glemon]

$300 for an inspection, my local guy charges $45 for boiling and crack testing if you tear it down yourself, I hadn't tried it until recently, but it was not really hard at all to take the valves off (I just levered them down with a pickle fork wedged on the rocker pedestal stud with a nut and a washer, don't have a special tool). I don't know about taking it in, it just depends on how risk averse you are. On the one hand it is probably OK, on the other, why not have it checked when it is off? It used to be fairly common practice to take some abrasive paste and grind your own valves, and some car tool kits even came with a valve grinding tool, but hardly ever done these days, I brought that subject up about my Austin Healey a few years ago and got all sorts of nostalgic stories about grinding valves in a shed with no door in the middle of winter, but most suggested a shop could do it better and it would last longer.

 

[TomMull]

Even at today's machine shop labor rates, $300 for a teardown and inspection seems excessive. I'd ask the shop what you will get for your money. I got new guides, seats, valve grinding, cleaning, crack check and the surface skimmed for not much more.
As stated above, there is nothing difficult about taking the valves and springs out. If you don't like the like the pickle fork (aka tie rod fork) idea, valve spring compressors are pretty cheap. I still have and old one from Sears as well as a suction cup seating tool. (I once ground a burned valve on a bench grinder by hand and eye and then lapped it in enough to get the engine running on all four, speaking of stories).

It's a good idea to keep the valves in order so they go back where they came and most issues can assessed by visual inspection. The shops can do a great job at cleaning but you can do it adequately with a brush and solvent.

Here's a decent checklist: https://lincolntrial.integr8cms.net/index.php/38-disc-brakes/section-2/cyheco/2875-cleaning-disassembling-and-inspecting-a-cylinder-head

 

[TR4nut]

I agree about the pricing- my last head rework by the machine shop was just a little over $300.

 

[Geo Hahn]

Instead of taking my cylinder head into a shop to be tested (nothing was wrong with it to my knowledge), what if I go to Harbor Freight, buy a valve spring compressor...

FWIW - I used a valve spring compressor on loan from O'Reillys. Here is their loaner program.

AutoZone also has one they lend.

Yeah 300 bucks seems a lot - I don't think I paid much more than that to have the head boiled, tested, new guides installed, hardened seats installed and everything reassembled for the install.

Are you getting hardened seats (or have them already)?

 

[Lukens]

Why not just set the valves and check the compression? Seems like pulling the head is a bit much just for a "look around". If the head does comes off, do it right... guides, springs, tappets, angle grinding, gaskets, studs, etc.
My two cents.

 

[TR3driver]

Ditto on prices. No reason you can't remove the valves yourself, but it can be a bit tricky and I don't recall seeing the right kind of valve spring compressor at HF.

Since the TR2-4A engine uses multiple springs per valve, you want the kind that reaches around and presses against the valve head rather than just trying to grab the spring coils.

But I use one I made myself, which is just a length of heavy flat iron with a notch to fit around a temporarily installed rocker stud & nut, and a hole big enough to remove the keepers with needle nose pliers. A big nut between the valve head & bench holds the valve up. I also use a short length of pipe & a few hammer taps to loosen the keepers first (which IMO is a good idea with any type of compressor as they can be really tight).

 

[pdplot]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Ever take a cylinder head off? It took a week of soaking in PB Blaster and even then we had big trouble removing the head. This was on a TR6. A TR3-4-4A might be easier. The devil is in the details.

 

[TR3driver]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Ever take a cylinder head off?

Usually not so bad on a TR2-4, depending on how many studs snap off. Back when I was having head gasket problems, I got the process down to an hour or so (with a few tricks like leaving the exhaust manifold hanging on the exhaust pipe).

But I'm pretty sure KVH already has the head off, since he's been asking about piston dimensions and they won't come out the bottom.

 

[Marvin Gruber]

My local shop only charges $100 to check and grind valves. TR3/4 heads don't crack that much, when they do you know it. I would look it over , if valve faces/lips look good, I would put it back on
marg

 

[CJD]

The head will talk to you. It's not hard to tell when it needs work.

A good shop doesn't charge for a crack check...if you are having other work done. A good shop wants to know if it's worth their time BEFORE they start cutting and grinding on it. It's hard to sell a $300 valve job after you figure out the head is cracked!

Sears sells 2 different spring tools for under $80. One is faster, the other a pain but cheap. Once the valves are loose...keep them in the same holes...don't mix them up. Then look them over:

1) Are some valves deep in the pocket and others not? Time for new seats at about $120
2) If you move the valve just off its closed position can you detect a good bit of side to side play in the guide...or is there a groove on the valve stem? New guides about $100 and/or oversized valves at about $120.
3) Is the bottom of the head all ratty and corroded, with gaps when you hold it to a straight edge? It needs surfacing at $60-$80.
4) Do the springs sit at different heights when you take them off? You need new springs at $40-$100.
5) Is there a groove around the valves where they contact the head? You need a valve job at $100-$120

If you find all the above, you are looking at about $500. It can be any variable under that depending on how the shop decides to salvage old/swap for new parts.

And, of course, if you plan to sell the car in the foreseeable future...don't touch anything and put hte head right back on, as is!

 

[Simon TR4a]

Do you guys remember gently blowing cigarette smoke down the port as a visual test to see if the valve was seated? If smoke leaked past the valve you still had work to do!

 

[Geo Hahn]

...TR3/4 heads don't crack that much, when they do you know it...

Yeah, not too often but...

 

[GTP1960]

Yeah, not too often but...

so George, was that head a total goner?
& what are we looking at there?
(Hate to show how green I am.....but I am)

 

[bobhustead]

To get the keeper out of the retainers, I have always put a long 1/2 inch drive socket on the retainder and hit the socket with a hammer. The spring compresses and the keepers fall to the side. Still need a compressor to get them back in.
Bob

 

[BillyB62]

Like Bob, thats how I took my springs off too.

 

[PeterK]

Agree on price - $300 should get your head done = valve job by pros. Try another machine shop. Just bring it in and ask for it to be reconditioned (seats, guides, valves, etc.)

 

[Geo Hahn]

so George, was that head a total goner?
& what are we looking at there?

That is the head on my TR4. Apparently cracked and stitched long ago, possibly at the factory (numbers and records are strange on this one with about 6 months unaccounted for between when it was built and when it left Coventry).

When I had the head rebuilt a few years ago the machinist pronounced the repair sound and saw no problem with getting another 50 years out of the head.

I got hardened seats as I was seeing a lot of valve recession after an especially fast 8 hour run home from California.

 

[pdplot]

You guys are lucky. Everything costs more here in the Northeast. My valve job with hardened seats, new exhaust valves, pressure testing, etc. cost $916.66. Down in Englewood, Florida, I had new front rotors installed on my '02 Accord - cost $175.00. And High Gear Automotive did a perfect job. That job up here would have been at least $400 at the dealers. The only machine shop left in Stamford went out of business 2 years ago. This whole area has been gentrified and corporatized.

 

[ghawk16]

You guys are lucky. Everything costs more here in the Northeast. My valve job with hardened seats, new exhaust valves, pressure testing, etc. cost $916.66. Down in Englewood, Florida, I had new front rotors installed on my '02 Accord - cost $175.00. And High Gear Automotive did a perfect job. That job up here would have been at least $400 at the dealers. The only machine shop left in Stamford went out of business 2 years ago. This whole area has been gentrified and corporatized.

Yeah, I was going to get a quote from my shop doing my body work that also does engine work for the above to see how much it costs. In CA, I'm betting it's more. EVERYTHING costs more in CA. I may just end up shipping it out to Acme Speed Shop. Even with shipping I bet I come out ahead.