Why $$$ restore ???

[Bob Claffie]

I've done a few LBC restorations over the years and have enjoyed the process and resulting driving experiences. After a time have sold them all and usually made a little to compensate for my time (.10 per hour). My next project was to be a early 70's Spitfire and am having second thoughts. I have a vision of exactly what I want to end up with. The problem is $$$ . After looking over the latest catalogs it seems that my project will cost 8 to 10 K depending on how good the beginning car is. This will result in a car with an actual value of 5 or 6 thou. Is any one else in this predicament? How many of you are plowing big bucks into an old crock with no prospects of even breaking even? Is it a love or a sickness? I haven't decided if I'm going to follow through or not, probably can be swayed by the responses here. Thanks for letting me rant. Bob

 

[Brosky]

Bob,

Since you've done this before and you know the values of the cars when done, you have to decide if it's worth the effort and expense. You can probably make a decent driver for decent money, but then no one wants to pay anything for a car unless it looks really good, so where do you draw the line? And even then, some frame off resto's don't bring anywhere near what the owners invested in first class paint, upholstery and engine work.

That's why you either have to resign yourself to the fact that you'll rarely make money and if you can live with that, you'll sleep easier.

 

[jessebogan]

Well,it depends what you want to end up with. In my case, I cannot afford to purchase a car exactly like I want. So, since I have the tools and talent, I have to make my own. This spreads the $$$ out over a longer time period, and I control how and when it gets spent.In the end, I should wind up with a (nearly anyway) perfect, hand assembled car that exactly meets my standards and specifications. I don't do this with an eye to recovering all of my money when I sell it. I have no intention of selling it anytime soon. If I start with a 100% restored car, I am going to drive it until it is around 70% before I think about moving it on. So, my reward is not fiscal, it is in the miles of enjoyment I get out of it after putting in all of the hard work. I get to own a car that is not exactly like anyone elses, and the satisfaction of knowing that I did it myself. No mastercard can provide me with that, no matter what.
Just my 10 cents...

 

[JamesWilson]

As you've noted you haven't made much on your past efforts but broke even.

I do this because I love the cars and get a lot of enjoyment from doing the work itself. And I plan on keeping them so the profitablity isn't an issue, though I'm not looking at a botttomless pit (though a Lotus engine comes preetty close).

I suspect that you'll find it much harder to break-even with the cheaper LBCs than with the more expensive ones- the parts aren't much, if any, cheaper. That's pretty true too for jobs that have to be farmed out to specialists. And the amount of your own time won't be all that much less either.

The upshot is that you'll be spending nearly as much time and effort and money too on a Spitfire as you might on one of the bigger and more expensive brothers.

It's hard to make anything on a restoration of any car and I think it's probably rather harder to do so if the cars are relatively "cheap" to begin with.

As you've noted you can buy one for less than your restoration costs...

But how does that speed and economy compare to the satisfaction you'd get from doing it yourself, and having exactly what you want?

 

[Tinster]

My wife bought a "almost 100% estored to factor showroom
condition 1969 TR6." She paid $10,000 cash with $100 dollar
bills.

The radiator blew up the very next week and during the past 3 years we have $48,000 invested in replacement parts to replace things that broke down or fell off. ALL my labor since no TR mechanics here on the island. The car is presntly on jackstands again. Dizzy being rebuilt. 2500 miles driven.

My opinion, buy the cheapest, ragged out car that runs.
A few cans of Bondo, ten rattle cans for paint and drive the car into the ground, part it out on Ebay and get another.

Man, think How many cars and how many enjoyable miles I could
have with $48,000 purchasing ragged out hulks?? And driving them until they died.

And I figure my TR6 MIGHT sell for $3000 or $4000 on ebay

Not a hobby for the poor working man or non-mechanic.
Pretty much rich guys who pay pros to do the work or
expert mechanics who do their oun work.

The window for us Rookies is a might tiny opening.

Buy the junker and have a blast.




d

 

[19_again]

Buying a car ready to drive is step 1. step 2 is buying a "restorer" that allows you to take some time and in my case have the satisfaction that every single nut and bolt is new, every existing threaded hole has been chased and are brand new quality. The electrical connections are better than day one, bearings and bushings all new, head set up for unleaded, etc. The two years I expect to devote to the GT6+ rebuild will be a great learning experience and the satisfaction when that puppy finally turns over and sounds like that straight six on Jim's site will be worth it.
The cost is secondary to the satisfaction of having a great (step one) '67 MGb to drive around in while having a GT6 in the garage being put back together better than new. Rainy days give me the time to restore the GT6, which will be the car i drive on rainy days when he B is in the garage, what a plan!

 

[Brosky]

Yours is the ideal way to go. Especially if you have the $$ and garage space, plus you get to do the restoration at your leisure, so that is a reward in itself.

 

[poolboy]

Buy the best you can afford. But (and this is important) know what you are buying and pay accordingly.
If the most you are willing to pay initially is 3k, it's reasonable to expect a less than perfect car. Great, because that was what you were looking for, a project.
Every now and then I'll look at what is for sale that compares to my car, as far as apparent condition. I'm not usually disappointed as far as what I have totally spent on mine compared to what I see another one selling for.
Time and labor excluded, but that what a hobby does for you; it gives you something to do in your spare time. Being retired, I got a lot of that.

 

[TR4nut]

I agree with you poolboy, but I'd add (for me at least) the end goal in mind is very important. If you are trying to win best of show you hunt for one thing, if you are trying your hand at engine rebuilding or bodywork, for example, you hunt for another. And despite those plans you spend waaayyy too much money!

Randy

 

[Brosky]

These cars were starting to get big bucks on eBay over the summer and fall. Lately, some really nice, well documented cars went for what I thought was really short money. The economy, those who may need to sell and many other reasons could affect the lower selling prices.

Now is a good time (buyers market) to get a great value that may have a lot of quality work done and be that much further ahead, whether it will be for show or used as a driver.

 

[poolboy]

And despite those plans you spend waaayyy too much money!

Randy

That's one thing that we all have in common; is that what you're saying, Randy ?

 

[DrEntropy]

Buying a mass produced English car with an eye to profit is likely the same as "investing" in a lotto ticket. If you go into it with the aim of enjoying the car you're far better off. If you want to buy something to resell for profit, home appliances are a better market just now.

 

[tdskip]

So one interesting thing here is that no one seems to have factored in value of the enjoyment in doing the work. <span style="font-weight: bold">NOT</span> faulting or giving anyone a hard time, but seems to me if we're tracking the return on the work then we should be tracking the value of the fun.

So while we might get $.10 back on the dollar on parts or outsourced labor, what entertainment value are we getting? If you figure that it cost more than $10 an hour to see a movie (at least around here if you buy anything coming/going/in the theater) then that $10 an hour of enjoyment value should be added in to the equation. How much does a round of golf cost - all in - per hour?

If I assign a $10+ an hour enjoyment rate to the time I'd spent then most of my LBC don't owe me a dime. (Admittedly several beaters in the mix here. The TR8 owes me a first born - lol)

What do you guys think? Yes/no?

 

[poolboy]

I see your point. I guess for me it's like this. I enjoy the planning, I enjoy the diagnosing. I enjoy the satisfaction of getting thru sucessfully.
Sometimes though, it's just plain ol' work there in the middle.
But like I said it's a hobby and I don't have the pressure anymore to fix a car at night so I could get to work in the morning.

 

[Brosky]

Tom,

The work is fun. I was just pointing out that now is a good time to buy a car that may have a lot of work (time and money) done already, so that you can get more enjoyment out of driving instead of fixing and spending.

 

[prb51]

Given your reservations on recouping investment/time why not choose another LBC. Spits, lovely car that they are, don't bring much in return for investment.
They are cheap and plentiful.
All cars cost to rebuild/refurbish.
Pick one that has a higher return or just do it for the fun and enjoyment.

 

[emmett1010]

Body and paintwork is the killer!
No one wants to refinish body panels. They can bolt an aftermarket fender on a Chevy, paint it and charge $2000!
The guys that know how and a willing to do it are tied up on 57 Chevy convertables, and Mustang GT500 Shelbys!
Unless they can charge what they want, they won't fool with it.
IF you can find someone who knows how, and is willing to do it, you will pay big bucks!
Makes you understand the Rat Rod crowd.
Emmett

 

[Cheapsnake]

There's nothing wrong with expecting to recoup your expenses or even making a small profit on your project, but don't bet your kid's college tuition on it. Pick your car carefully. Do your own work - everything you sub out decreases your "profit" potential. You may need to learn some new skills and purchase some new tools but hey, that's all part of the fun. Harbor Freight has the tools you'll need and ebay will eventually have the parts you need (sorry BV). And, above all, do the absolute best quality work possible. Nothing brings a project car's resale value down quicker than shoddy workmanship or obvious shortcuts.

I've done two projects, an 80 TR8 and a Cobra replica, both of which I expect to pay for themselves, if not make me a small profit. I'm currently building a Porsche 914 with a Rover V8 and hope to do the same. Oh yeah, one other thing, if you can find a totally trashed twin to your project car to use as your parts car, you'll save a bunch of money AND you can sell excess parts on ebay to fund your project or restock your shop frig.

But, as others have said before me, this has to be a labor of love or no amount of money is going to make it worth your time. Good luck.

Tom

 

[Tinster]

I was quoted $15,000. to paint my red TR6 the same color red.
No body damage, no rust I am aware. a few stone nicks from driving on the highway.

robbers are everywhere

t

 

[Mkutz]

My prediction is that the auto restoration services industry will have price decreases in the next 2 years. The major auction houses that have been pushing values of Detroit muscle cars in the 6 digit plus ranges, have been creating a vacuum for the rest of the hobby. What I mean is that when everyone suddenly thinks a Chevelle Malibu is worth $55,000, and they want a paint job, then their not going to think twice about paying $10k for a paint job that should only be about $2k. The shops are too happy to charge those amounts too. As the percieved "values" of these cars goes up, then so follows the consequent prices that everyone gets to pay by resto shops doing paint, engine, or whatever work. Basically, the services industry see the values rising, thanks to benchmarks set by the auction houses, and raise their prices accordingly to get a piece of the pie.

Easy credit's over, times are tough, the stock market has taken a beating, and I think the demand will slow. This means less work for everyone, which means lower prices for both cars and services.

This became evident when trying to find a chromer recently-- I was told the high prices of chroming were because of the prices of nickel and copper (pre-bust commodity prices of $25 and $3 per pound). OK, I said, are you using a pallet of each to chrome my windscreen frame? No, the answer lie with the fact that their was an 8 week wait -- so much demand that they can charge practically whatever they want.