Rotiserrie restore and $$$$ and Marque difference

[Sownman]

Please shed some light on this for me. I spoke to a restorer who is somewhat a Tiger specialist told me this...

"Give me a Tiger and $70,000 and I'll give you back a brand new 1965 Tiger" I've seen his results and they are beautiful

For starters this is above my budget and not going to happen.

A couple days ago (here I think) I saw an ad for a MGB rotiserrie restore for sale for $11,000. I saw these pics and they were beautiful.

The question is how can any car be completely stripped turned on a spit and put back together for $11,000 ? If it actually can why does it cost so much more to do it to a Tiger than an MGB ? I can see why purchase of a fair quality starting point cost is so much different in one car vs another but how can completeing the identical labor be priced so completely different ? I imagine I'm not the first to notice this. ;^)

Steve

 

[DougF]

If you count your own labor as free... When you are paying a garage rate for your restoration, the price can add up VERY quickly. Especially with some of the hourly rates out there. If you do all of your own work strictly as a hobby and start with a car that doesn't need much, and only include material costs, you can justify selling it inexpensively.

 

[JPSmit]

Don't forget both economies of scale and the laws of supply and demand.

total production MGB - 399,070 over 18 years
total production Tiger - 7,085 over 3 years

Victoria British charges

MGB door skin - $119.95
Tiger door skin - $219.95

not sure that justifies $60k difference - though you might ask your restorer how much he would charge for an MGB resto. certainly 8 cylinders trumps 4, rarity trumps common, and possibly even Get Smart factors in. The other reality is that, with my Midget, if I don't factor in labour I MIGHT get out what I've put in because it's easy to restore more than the car is worth - your Tiger guy may well be assuming the Tiger is not for resale but for personal use and restore it accordingly. If you go to ebay, there is a non-original Tiger with a bid of 30k and a "show quality" MGB with a "buy it now" of 16k.

it's a fickle world

 

[swift6]

Your thinking about it in the wrong way. One is paying someone to restore a car, the other is buying a restored car. The MGB could easily hit 40+K dollars to completely restore when paying someone else to do it but won't be worth anywhere near 40+K dollars when finished.

Put simply, the cost to restore these cars does not determine the value. The actual value is usually quite a bit less than the cost of restoration.

 

[Sownman]

Your thinking about it in the wrong way. One is paying someone to restore a car, the other is buying a restored car. The MGB could easily hit 40+K dollars to completely restore when paying someone else to do it but won't be worth anywhere near 40+K dollars when finished.

Put simply, the cost to restore these cars does not determine the value. The actual value is usually quite a bit less than the cost of restoration.

Then why would anyone do it ? Other than out of love for the car and desire to keep/show/drive it.

I double checked and the MGB I saw was being sold by a member here.

 

[Sownman]

Don't forget both economies of scale and the laws of supply and demand.

total production MGB - 399,070 over 18 years
total production Tiger - 7,085 over 3 years

Victoria British charges

MGB door skin - $119.95
Tiger door skin - $219.95

not sure that justifies $60k difference -

It's really much more than a 60K difference. In the Tiger statement it was "Give me a CAR and $70K" With the MGB the $11K included the car. With the rarity issue you illustrated a moderate quality but needing restore quality car might cost $20K for a Tiger and (I don't really know the MGB market) maybe $3K for an MGB ? So to put the Tiger rotisserie restore at $90K including car vs $11K including car for the MGB.

On top of that if you watch car auctions on TV you often hear of a 1932 Dusenberg or 1940 whatevermobile being sold for $170K with a comment from the commentator that "You cant restore that car for that SMALL figure"

I would just like to be able to wrap my head around the why of the vastly different restoration costs tied to different marques. I can better understand a 1932 Dusenberg costing so much because of parts rarity and requirement to machine needed things. But, I don't see the vast difference in mostly labor to do a 1965 vs 1972 car. Parts are pretty common for both.

Steve

 

[tony barnhill]

You can't buy all the parts needed for a true rotiserrie restoration for $11,000!

A 'true rotiserrie restoration' is take it down to bare shell (every nut & bolt removed) &, after blasting body to remove any rust or bondo, building it with all new parts (& I mean every nut & bolt)! A true restoration of that quality would go for $25,000-$30,000 depending on how much was done by professionals & how much was done by the owner who didn't include his labor in the price!

I've got much more than $11,000 in this little Midget (& I rebuilt some things instead of buying new) - & you don't even want to know how much I've got in the TD in the bubble behind it!

Heck, I've got close to $1,500 in the restoration of the hardtop on this car - that's hardtop only!:

 

[JPSmit]

Then why would anyone do it ? Other than out of love for the car and desire to keep/show/drive it.

that's basically it - I can buy a car for less than my restoration - but, this is MY car, will always be and I wanted it done right - and I wanted to do it myself. In other words, I wanted to show I could do more than write a cheque.

That being said, there are those who get in way over their heads - sometimes out of foolishness and sometimes because they get sucked into the project with "might as well itis"

In town we currently have a guy trying to sell a $2500-4500 Renault for $9900 because he (presumably not knowing what he was doing) paid $13k

 

[JPSmit]

you don't even want to know how much I've got in the TD in the bubble behind it!

and more to the point, you don't want your wife to know (or at least I don't want mine to :laugh:

Tony, you will have one happy grandson one day! (course then he'll rod it ) :banana:

 

[swift6]

Then why would anyone do it ? Other than out of love for the car and desire to keep/show/drive it.

that's basically it - I can buy a car for less than my restoration - but, this is MY car, will always be and I wanted it done right - and I wanted to do it myself. In other words, I wanted to show I could do more than write a cheque.

Which is why a common word of advice for those getting into the hobby is for them to buy the best car they they can afford. It keeps them from getting heavily upside down in their car. These cars, LBC's, are really not good financial investments. A Duesenberg on the other hand...

Read what has been written again. The $11,000 is the market value for the restored MGB, not the cost to restore it. The $70k plus the car for the Tiger restoration is the cost to restore it but not the market value of it once it has been restored.

The LBC hobby, whether you restore it yourself or pay someone else to do it, is more about driving these fun cars, socializing in the LBC community, holding onto/re-living past memories etc... than securing a financial nest egg. If your looking for logic, you probably won't find it. It is all about emotion instead.

 

[mikeyr]

What a car is worth is not what it costs to restore, as it has been said already you can spend $70k on the restoration of a car and sell it for only $15k because that is all it is worth.

I recently sold a car at a good sized loss, much less than it cost to restore and I did all the work myself. Happily starting another car now and looking forward to it, its how I relax...making the car the very best it can be and then getting another car and I never keep receipts and I don't do the math either.

I always start with the best I can afford and enjoy a few years in the garage making it better.

 

[PAUL161]

17 months, $15,000.00 in receipts and no labor fees. We love the car and have no intentions of selling it. If you want to build a car for profit, you don't want an MG. Build it just for the love of it!

JMHO

 

[Sownman]

I recently sold a car at a good sized loss, much less than it cost to restore and I did all the work myself.

Shoot me an email when you have another ready to sell :^)

Have you posted any Singer pics here ?

 

[angelfj1]

We've been at it for 7 years plus. If we finish by next spring, I would guess that 1000 hours plus parts plus subcontracting will have been expended. So, you do the math. Adds up very quickly. :shocked:

 

[JamesWilson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] Put simply, the cost to restore these cars does not determine the value. The actual value is usually quite a bit less than the cost of restoration.
[/QUOTE]

And a real problem is that having "invested" your $70-90k in the Tiger would you then want to drive it and thereby reduce it's pristine condition and value?

A concours winning car is one proposition and unless you derive great satisfaction from simply having a fine example of a particular car it's then very difficult to justify spending so much. Trying to sell it soon after restoration will take a real knock in value- much worse than the first year's depreciation on a new car.

If you want the car for the pleasure of driving it then buying a good example for use is far more likely to be satisfactory than dropping big bucks for a full restoration.

If you have the skills then buying a "fixer-upper" might be a suitable option- they you can extract some satisfaction from bringing a derelict back to life. And be proud of your own accomplishments as well the fun of driving the end product.

Though you may find, as I have done, that the resuscitation period is years (and more years!) rather than the mere months initially fantasized....

 

[JPSmit]

And a real problem is that having "invested" your $70-90k in the Tiger would you then want to drive it and thereby reduce it's pristine condition and value?


If you want the car for the pleasure of driving it then buying a good example for use is far more likely to be satisfactory than dropping big bucks for a full restoration.

amen to that - even though mine is being restored to a very high standard - it will never be a trailer queen - it needs to drive! This also raises another issue which is that you can restore but patina might actually be more valuable (if not monetarily at least in terms of interest.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] Though you may find, as I have done, that the resuscitation period is years (and more years!) rather than the mere months initially fantasized.... [/QUOTE]

you too? I'm four into a two year project

 

[Guest]

Insurance on a Tiger that might maul you to death is expensive.... Just ask Zigfreid and Roy! Those MGB's have never bitten anyone! And they're cheaper to feed since they're not carnivorous. LOL! Really, it is the difference in labor and parts mark-up at a pro shop as opposed to a week-end warrior! (ACHILLES!)

 

[kennypinkerton]

...And a lot of people who blow big money on restorations actually ENJOY working on their cars. Spending money on parts and restoration stuff is just part of the hobby. I'd probably be really upset if I figured all the money I've spent on all the hobbies I've had over the years. At least with sportscars, you get something really nice out of the money and hard work.

 

[Dave Richards]

Re: Rotiserrie restore and $$$$ and Marque differe

Then why would anyone do it ? Other than out of love for the car and desire to keep/show/drive it.

BINGO!

That and hours and hours of teaching your kids how to maintain, clean-up, repaint, rebuild, and DRIVE (and they're learning to appreciate and respect the car).

Of course, we could pay to have these things done, but we're not just building cars, we're building people.

 

[tony barnhill]

Re: Rotiserrie restore and $$$$ and Marque differe



& you don't even want to know how much money I have in building my 4,000 square foot garage to keep the old things out of the weather!