Suggestions – LED Project

[RAC68]

Hi All,

My present objective is to reduce the amperage passing through the 47-year old flasher relay box. My initial thought is to install 1157 (BA15D) replacement LEDs. However, there are some issues to address.

1. Does anyone have an LED recommendation, with superior brightness, for a replacement 1157 incandescent bulbs?
2. It seems that, due to the low LED amperage draw, the original flasher will not work. Published resolutions include the installation of an electronic flasher or resistors placed across each bulb. Does anyone have any ideas on whether a single resistor, attached to the line wire at the flasher, would satisfy this issue? If appropriate, what resistor value would work?
3. An alternative to LED-installation could be the application of 2 relays to offload the rear brake and directional load. I would appreciate any thoughts on this approach as the rear lights represents the major electrical current passing through the flasher box.

Thanks and all the best,
Ray (64BJ8P1)

 

[Robert560]

I can't speak to the LEDs, but replacing your original flasher with a Tridon EL13 will solve any load problems you may have. I just put one of these on my cars due to load removal for a non-LED reason. Bought it at Autozone for around $8, and works great!

~Bob

 

[RAC68]

Thanks Bob,

I have been reading about the electronic flasher and they seem a relatively inexpensive and easily implemented solution. I see this as a major solution; however, I would like to keep the original flasher if that would not be a pain to achieve.

Thanks again for your recommendation.

Ray (64BJ8P1)

 

[Stretch]

You have to closely match the current through the flasher to equal what would flow through the old bulb. Otherwise, the heating element in the flasher won't cycle at a similar rate. If you put a resistor at the each bulb then the current through the relay box will be the same and not satisfy your goal. I'm not sure you can get where you want. Also, resistor watt rating needs to be high enough to not burn up. (Watts equals voltage squared divided by resistance or current squared times resistance).

 

[Cottontop]

Hi All,

My present objective is to reduce the amperage passing through the 47-year old flasher relay box. electrical current passing through the flasher box.

Ray,

About the only way to accomplish what you want to do is to add a mechanical or solid state power relay AFTER the relay box so that the relays in the box ONLY energize the coil of a power relay that applys full voltage and current to the bulbs. That way, the relay box would draw milliamps rather than multiple amps.

I have a similar arrangement on my headlamps. ONLY the current for one power relay coil passes through the headlamp and dimmer switch. My wiring, with heavy power bypassing the switches, makes the headlights MUCH brighter.

WHY do you feel it is necessary to lower the current passing through your relay box?

Tim

 

[RAC68]

Hi Stretch/Tim,

Thanks for your input.

Stretch, I agree that I would not achieve my objective by placing a resistor at each bulb. The picture below reflects my thought of placing the resistor on the line between the flasher and the flasher relay box. This resistor would provide the flasher with the resistance needed to function properly. My concern is that I don’t know how to calculate the value of the resistor. Additionally, if this works, why hasn’t this simple approach been done by others?

Tim, I have also installed relays to offload my Headlight circuits. If retaining the original 1157 incandescents, will the reduced load produced by the relays cause a problem with the flasher even though the front parking/signal lights are left original?

Although I still have not selected appropriate LEDs for use (no recommendations and no way to choose from the large selection of number of element or LED type), I must assume that the right LED will fall on the high end of the price range of $6 to $36 per bulb.

Based upon preliminary indications, the most cost effective approach would seem to be the installation of relays and not the LEDs. This could easily change, however, if I can secure an experience-recommendation that points to an LED that fall in the lower portion of the price range.

Again, thanks for the input.
Ray (54BJ8P1)

 

[stretchit2]

Ray,

I saw these for sale on the Austin Healey Association of Southern California, see below.

LEDs

Good Luck,

Stretchit (not to be confused with stretch)

 

[GregW]

Hi Ray,
Personally, I'd go with LEDs and an electronic flasher. It is the simplest way to get what you want. I'm no expert, but I think that resistor in-line after the flasher will reduce the voltage that the relay sees. This might cause the flasher to stop working entirely. A load resistor for an LED would work in parallel with the LED (see photo at bottom) I don't know if there is lower limit of current that the relay needs to function ( I don't have one in my car) but it is a mechanical relay as opposed to an electronic one.

Most of the replacement LED bulbs I bought have been very disappointing. They all say they are brighter than traditional bulbs, but they never are. I haven't tried the ones Stretchit linked to though. The LEDs I put on my motorcycle are Luxeon 3s. They are brighter and have a 120° viewing angle. Sadly, I just found out they are obsolete. I did find some Luxeon Rebel tri-mount packages that look good however. 3 LEDs mounted on a 20mm board. They can output up to 400 lumens, which is almost 3 times what the Luxeon 3s do. These need heatsinks and a driver(s). The driver can be replaced with an appropriate resistor though to save some money. HERE is a link to that LED.

 

[RAC68]

Stretch2/Greg,

I appreciate your direction as I also have been disappointed by misleading LED-performance comparisons to original 1157 incandescents.

Greg, the Luxeon LEDs seem to be board mounted. Although I liked the price, I did not see a BA15D product and was wondering if you used the board-mount or a BA15D towers as depicted in your response?

Stretch2, thanks for the lead and hate to sound cheap but I find it economically difficult to justify spending over $100 in bulbs to achieve my objective of reduced amperage flow through the flasher box.

Again, thanks guys,
Ray (64BJ8P1)

 

[Cottontop]

to achieve my objective of reduced amperage flow through the flasher box.

Ray,

WHY do you want, or feel the need, to do that?

Tim

 

[RAC68]

Hi Tim,

I really appreciate your questions as they always make me stop and thing. My father always said, “The difference between a Hobby and Work is; if you have to do it ….its Work.” This effort seems to be in the middle.

I became very aware of the deficits in the Healy’s electrical system when I had a license plate light short takes out part of my original rear harness. This situation, and my desire to upgrade lights and add other new electrical options, brought me to focus on the gauge of wire used in my original harness. Add in the age of critical components and switches and the risk of experiencing a disaster increases.

To reduce this risk, I have embed a host of fuses, installed a number of strategically placed relays, and in some cases, created additional harnesses with upgraded gauge wiring (i.e. Head and driving lights). This project is just another phase of my overall electrical safety/risk-reduction program and represents my attempt to improve rear lighting with auxiliary (reflector-installed) lights, improved light brightness, and off-loading some of the demand on the critical 47+ year-old flasher box.

Thanks again and all the best,
Ray (64B8P1)

 

[Johnny]

I have to agree that reducing the current through the flasher relay will help, but unless you add electronic relays to reduce the current through the head light switch you won't accomplish much.

I recently added the relays to my BJ7 and noticed an increase brightness of my headlights.

 

[GregW]

Greg, the Luxeon LEDs seem to be board mounted. Although I liked the price, I did not see a BA15D product and was wondering if you used the board-mount or a BA15D towers as depicted in your response?

Hi Ray,
The previous photo was just to show the placement of a resistor to create a load for the flasher, as opposed to having the resistor in series. Yes, the Luxeons I used came on a PC board and I mounted them on an aluminum sheet I made to act as a bracket as well as heat sink.

 

[RAC68]

I agree Johnny, and installed the relays and added an upgraded harness extension a few years ago (below).

Greg, The pictures help a lot. The light emission of those LEDs is what I was looking for. I have got to work out how to implement the board-mountings and an effective heat sink inside the restrictively small lens of the BJ8P1.

Thanks,
Ray (64BJ8P1)

 

[GregW]

I just stumbled across some interesting LED bulbs from John Sims great website. THESE LEDs are 1156 and 1157 replacements in both pos. and neg. ground. They seem to use the Luxeon Rebel chips, but I'd call them and ask before buying. I'd also ask what the lumen output is. I wonder how far the heatsink would project into the lens area though. The heatsink could actually block the light except for the last third of the beehive, even with their low profile version. Just speculating here.

As far as heatsinks for the trimount LEDs I mentioned earlier, a computer chipset heatsink might be worth a look. THESE look purdy, but are a little pricey.

There is a myriad of ways to wire these up. Using resistors would be the cheapest. If your voltage regulator is fairly stable, the life of the LEDs shouldn't be shorted too much. If you wire all three LEDs on the board to operate as both running and brake, you'd need to install a diode on each hot running light wire to keep the turn signals from flashing both rear lights (or all lights if you LED the front also). This setup all LEDs would light up, but different current would change the intensity. I.E. 350ma for running lights, 700ma for the brake/turn signals. A way to avoid the diode would be to have only one of the LEDs wired to the running lights and have the other two activate with the brake/turn signal.

Spending some more money, you could get into some Buckpucks. These are current regulating modules. The ones that interest me have a pot to vary the current output so I can fine tune the intensity of the LEDs with little effort. THIS is what I'm referring to. There would need to be 3, one for the running lights and one for each side.

That's all I can write at the moment.

P.S. Am I looking at 5 fuses for your headlight circuit?

 

[RAC68]

Hi Greg,

Thanks for exposing a number of potential issues and offering some appreciated resolutions. Your description of Buckpuck is intriguing as it appears to give the ability to set and maintains regulation of power to the LED. Although I would like this facility, you were not kidding as to being a pricy addition. Give the limitations of space within the lens, I think it would be quite a trick to incorporate the led-board, heat sink, and Buckpuck, within this restricted area.

I was looking at BAY15D formatted ultra high output LEDs from Litezupp (www.litezupp.com) which seem to use high output LEDs and has recently incorporated diodes to lock the circuit. These LEDs are $25/bulb and would not require any fabrication or auxiliary components other than an electronic flasher. My hesitation is that I have only the company’s description of light output and no comparative pictures to see how the light would beam through a Healey-type lens.

I believe you missed one fuse when counting the number incorporated into my headlight/driving-light circuits as there are 6. I know …overkill. The 2 fuses at the dip switch were installed well before the relays and harness extensions were incorporated. When implementing the major circuit update, I just didn’t bather removing those fuses as they would be advantageous if ever unplugging all mods and reverting back to original.

Thanks for your collaborative thoughts as they are both informative an extremely helpful.

Ray (64BJ8P1)

 

[GregW]

Thanks for exposing a number of potential issues and offering some appreciated resolutions. Your description of Buckpuck is intriguing as it appears to give the ability to set and maintains regulation of power to the LED. Although I would like this facility, you were not kidding as to being a pricy addition. Give the limitations of space within the lens, I think it would be quite a trick to incorporate the led-board, heat sink, and Buckpuck, within this restricted area.

I wouldn't put the heatsink, puck or resistors in the beehive itself. If I was to use that heatsink, I'd gut the rubber boot where it surrounds the socket so the only part left is what retains the lens. Then remove the socket and replace it with a washer type ring that will retain the rubber. tap two holes in the heatsink so you can mount the ring and rubber to the body. So rubber and ring are outside the body, heatsink inside the trunk. Attach the LED to the heatsink so it is relatively flush with the shroud.

I was looking at BAY15D formatted ultra high output LEDs from Litezupp (www.litezupp.com) which seem to use high output LEDs and has recently incorporated diodes to lock the circuit. These LEDs are $25/bulb and would not require any fabrication or auxiliary components other than an electronic flasher. My hesitation is that I have only the company’s description of light output and no comparative pictures to see how the light would beam through a Healey-type lens.

They do have a guarantee if you wanted to try one out. It would just cost you the postage (both ways) if you didn't like it.

I believe you missed one fuse when counting the number incorporated into my headlight/driving-light circuits as there are 6. I know …overkill.

Nope, I consider the driving lights a separate circuit. :wink: One thing to keep in mind with that many fuses. You don't really get extra protection, but you do introduce the possibility of voltage drop. Depending on the resistance of each connection, there might be a couple volts lost. I count 6 connections between the battery and a headlight in your diagram. Might not be an issue here, but something to be aware of.

Here are a couple photos showing sizes of the components just for fun. I don't know if your shroud has the same size hole in it. This is a phase 2 lighting arrangement.

 

[RAC68]

Hi Greg,

GREAT IDEAS. Also, thanks for the photos as they brought the components into perspective relative to the size of the enclosure. Although the BJ8P1 has the single small lens, space would not be an issue when eliminating the light boot as suggested. I do see, and appreciate, your vision but would like to be in a position to easily reverse the modification.

I agree that, with the guaranty, there is little to loose and have ordered the Litezupp units for evaluation. If their light output proves unsatisfactory, I will then proceed to implement your modifications.

On second thought, your approach may be perfect for illuminating the reflectors. Presently, the installed LEDs only provide marginally adequate Brake/Directional lighting. Your approach provides a relatively flat LED board that would fit nicely inside the lens cavity while keeping the added components behind the shroud. Since this is an added light, would a BuckPuck or resistor be necessary? Also, the mounting rubber would stand the PC-board (inside the lens) off the heat sink (inside the body), would appropriately sized washers, coated in heat-sink past, serve as an adequate connection between the board and sink?

I agree that the connections can reduce power transmission, however, I would like to understand how you arrive at 6 connections between the battery and headlights as I see a master and unit fuse along with a relay and plug. It seems to me that your perspective would be helpful when modifying the headlight circuits in my TR7.

Thanks again Greg,
Ray (64BJ8P1)

 

[GregW]

I would like to understand how you arrive at 6 connections between the battery and headlights as I see a master and unit fuse along with a relay and plug.

You're right, it isn't 6. I missed a couple. :laugh: A fuse has two contacts as does a relay (input and output)

 

[GregW]

Since this is an added light, would a BuckPuck or resistor be necessary?

Yes, the LEDs are rated at 700ma and about 3v. Running them straight from battery power will smoke them in a couple seconds.

Also, the mounting rubber would stand the PC-board (inside the lens) off the heat sink (inside the body), would appropriately sized washers, coated in heat-sink past, serve as an adequate connection between the board and sink?

I'd shy away from using washers, a direct path to the heatsink would be best. With the dispersion of the LED, you want to get it as far against the shroud as possible to illuminate all of the beehive.
Here is a diagram of what I'd try to work out. If things don't fit, then something else may spark an idea. This is pretty custom and a fair amount of work (I like these kind of projects though) Might not even work well. Best to take some measurements and think the problem through before jumping in.