Quality control, from the usual suspects

[AUSMHLY]

Am I not alone? Restoring my bj8. I found I needed to re-core the heater and radiator. I think, replace the hoses too. What the heck, let's look into the thermostat and water pump being the car is apart and makes sense, to me, to question the condition of these items. How’s that go? Nickel and dime. I'm used to it now. Pre-maintenance, go ahead and replace. One month later, the new water pump I installed from Moss, leaks. I saved the old one, which by the way, did not have a problem. Another saying, don’t fix what ain’t broke. Now I know why people say, you'll be working on the Healey all the time. Wouldn't it be nice if the usual suspects paid just a little more attention to quality control, or giving the job to the next lowest bidder. Up side... I get to spend more time with my hobby. AKA Austin Healey.

Just sharing what we all know. Time spent with our Healey is what you make of it. I've come to expect her to be, a little bit, high maintenance. But she rewards with her driving charm and looks of admiration.

I so love driving her and the smiles and thumbs up from so many.

Cheers, Roger

 

[Keoke]

Well AUSMHLY, here is a tip on the water pumps. Before filling the radiator start the engine and let it run just "briefly" to set the pump seals. Some do not need it but others do. Just may be what the doctor ordered.--Fwiw--Keoke-

Read my comments on: Money Pit's Latest post-- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Velox]

In a prior post on water pumps there was this quote: "Water pump lubricant in the coolant is for the benefit of the seal, not the bearing." Above it says: "Before filling the radiator start the engine and let it run just "briefly" to set the pump seals. Some do not need it but others do." I am awaiting UPS to bring me my new BJ8 water pump. I have never before run a new pump "dry" for break in. I am confused - if the coolant includes seal lubricant I would think running a pump dry could injure the seal /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Advise please! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[Dave Russell]

Water pump shafts, from inside to outside, have an impeller, shaft face type seal, open vent space, & bearing.

Older design shaft seals are a carbon composition which may sometimes require a "break in" to achieve perfect sealing. This would normally be done by the manufacturer/rebuilder, if needed, by dry spinning the assembled pump briefly. Since most coolants contain water pump lubrication additives, spinning with coolant in the system would prevent this break in.

More modern designs & rebuild kits have ceramic or carbon/ceramic seals which do not require "break in" to get a perfect seal. Since most if not all Healey pumps are actually rebuilts, it is unlikely that they now have the old carbon type seals, but posible. It probably would not hurt to spin a dry rebuilt pump briefly to assure that the seal is broken in. This can be done most easily by holding the pump hub against a spinning wire wheel to rotate the pump very briefly (5 seconds). Too much spinning could damage the dry seal so Briefly is important. If the seal happens to be a modern ceramic replacement type, dry spinning could be harmful. Some folks just run the engine a bit before adding coolant which accomplishes the same thing. Brief is still the watchword. If in doubt, --- contact the pump rebuilder who knows what type of seal is installed & if break in is necessary.

There is an open cavity between the seal & the bearing. This space provides a vent to let any coolant which leaks past the seal drain out before it gets to the pump bearing. Coolant in the bearing would rapidly destroy it. So the vent leakage is an early warning system to give time to replace the seal/pump before the pump completely fails.

Modern water pump replacement bearings are of the permanently lubed type & do not require periodic lubrication. The original pump design did not have permanently lubed bearings & was fitted with a method to periodically oil or grease the pump bearing. Since any rebuilt pump, which 99% are, has permanently lubed bearings, using the old grease/oil port will only contaminate the coolant with unnecessary junk.
D

 

[AUSMHLY]

First time I've heard of a dry run. Good to know these things. Granted after the fact.

I installed it, filled the system with coolant and have driven the car 5 times. Around 300 miles. No problem.

Last Saturday, my Healey mechanic tells me the leak is from the water pump, seal.

Why did the leak occur?

Is this pump completely defective now?

If so, my bad or should I contact Moss for warrantee replacement?

Thank you, Roger

 

[Keoke]

Hi Dave / Velox The above is certainly the case. However, for the six cylinder cars a new pump whose housing excludes the old grease fitting has been produced.These new pumps utilize the permanently lubed sealed bearing assembly, but based on several pumps I have dismantled here in the shop they still use the carbon bearing. OTOH, current US re builders of the water pumps may use an uprated material for the seals as Dave suggested.---Fwiw---Keoke

 

[Velox]

Well this has been an education for me. One style seal --> dry run it or may leak. Other style seal --> no dry run or could damage seal. To be sure --> call the manufacturer. So I called Moss this morning about my order for a 580-010 pump which is currently "in the mail" and here is the info I received: That pump, BJ8 late 1/2" pulley, #580-010, is NOT a remanufactured pump, it is a NEW pump made by County company, requires NO dry run in, has new type seal. BUT yes Moss still sells some pumps that are remanufactured and/or may have OLD style seal which would require brief dry run in, and IF that is the case the installation guide packed with the pump in the box would specify this. So Ausmhly check the box your pump came in, if it said dry run in needed and this was not done... oops. If not, then Moss owes you a new pump methinks /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif

 

[Keoke]

Me thinks you be dreaming. Further, Moss rarely knows whats inside the box even though it has a label on it and I told you it was a new pump!--Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

OH I forgot,did you ask them where that Idia pump was made???.

 

[Keoke]

[ QUOTE ]
First time I've heard of a dry run. Good to know these things. Granted after the fact.

I installed it, filled the system with coolant and have driven the car 5 times. Around 300 miles. No problem.

Last Saturday, my Healey mechanic tells me the leak is from the water pump, seal.

Why did the leak occur?

Is this pump completely defective now?

If so, my bad or should I contact Moss for warrantee replacement?

Thank you, Roger

[/ QUOTE ]

HI Roger, Yes if the pump leaks it is toast. However, if you have access to a good rebuilder locally it can be very simply repaired. OTOH, I would suspect that Moss would replace the pump if you asked them to, they are pretty good about that when a purchased component fails which should have a longer life span.---Fwiw---Keoke

 

[Velox]

[ QUOTE ]
Me thinks you be dreaming. Further, Moss rarely knows whats inside the box even though it has a label on it and I told you it was a new pump!--Keoke-

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, let me recap just to make sure I understand /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
1) Moss does not know what they put in their boxes.
2) I am dreaming if I accept any of their info or labeling.
3) I must believe in Santa Claus (as you indicated in a PM reply) since I assumed the person at Moss tech support that I spoke with this morning was being truthful.

Well that's it for Water Pump 101 class today, kids
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif

 

[Keoke]

Velox; Everything is correct except; Moss does not put those things in the boxes and if they weren't labeled they wouldn't have a clue. Further, I know you know about assume so I needn't clarify that.---Keoke- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[JerryB]

Re: Quality control, from MOSS=MESSENGER

Moss and all the other "dealers"/sellers of parts are just the messenger.... should we shoot the messenger? Maybe. But that would leave only VB who you cant talk to any one with a number more than 10 without removing their shoes.

Most of the NOS stuff has long gone by the wayside and should we consider it fortunate that a supply of replacement parts (even tho the quality is sometimes suspect) are still availiable?

I have noticed that Moss for example has over the last few seasons has two grades (if you will) of SOME parts. Brake rotors are a good example.

Are they earnestly trying to supply "better'" parts? Or are they just looking for the "low bid"?

Is cost the determining factor and will the end user pay a good deal more for the part ? Is a better part even availiable at a higher price?

Well.....maybe yes and maybe no. Were not talking any kind of volume on much of this stuff....one might have to take whats availiable.

A thorough inspection of the part may help somewhat...BUT unless you have x-ray vision with a water pump your just taking a chance.

 

[Keoke]

Re: Quality control, from MOSS=MESSENGER

Well Jerry, you have a point. However, a lot of the time the messenger really doesn't have the facts. OTOH, if you purchase parts from sources that are also "reputable" restoration shops you generally will get a better grade of hardware. Course now you may have to pay a bit more. Sometimes I think we might be our own worst enemy being cheeep---Keoke

P.S. Kinda like that $25.00 regulator you know.--- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Patton]

Re: Quality control, from MOSS=MESSENGER

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the NOS stuff has long gone by the wayside and should we consider it fortunate that a supply of replacement parts (even tho the quality is sometimes suspect) are still available?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, why should we be happy that crappy parts are available. In a way they are actually doing us a disservice. Since they are the largest seller of British car parts, they can set the standard as to what is acceptable and what is not. They allow there suppliers to sell them crap, and we buy it because we either don't know the quality issue or it's the only item available. Your point about two levels is true, but ANYTHING that goes on a car should be functional and ANYTHING less is unforgivable.

I will say that when it comes to addressing problems after the purchase they are first rate most of the time.

Patton

 

[Dave Russell]

[ QUOTE ]
If so, my bad or should I contact Moss for warrantee replacement?
Thank you, Roger

[/ QUOTE ]
By all means contact Moss. I have never had a problem with them on a part that I don't like or think is defective. Usually they just send a replacement if the part was defective, or give me a refund if the quality isn't up to my standards. Same with BCS, Stockton.
D

 

[Keoke]

Re: Quality control, from MOSS=MESSENGER

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most of the NOS stuff has long gone by the wayside and should we consider it fortunate that a supply of replacement parts (even tho the quality is sometimes suspect) are still available?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, why should we be happy that crappy parts are available. In a way they are actually doing us a disservice. Since they are the largest seller of British car parts, they can set the standard as to what is acceptable and what is not. They allow there suppliers to sell them crap, and we buy it because we either don't know the quality issue or it's the only item available. Your point about two levels is true, but ANYTHING that goes on a car should be functional and ANYTHING less is unforgivable.

I will say that when it comes to addressing problems after the purchase they are first rate most of the time.

Patton

[/ QUOTE ]


Well said Patton. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif---Keoke-AZ- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cowboy.gif

 

[Editor_Reid]

This thread has bordered on earning deletion, closing, or least heavy editing, and it seems poised to get worse. Look, I know, as well as anyone here, the frustration and disappointment with defective parts. However, posting complaints, here, about quality control is not the best way to resolve the matter. Piling on also does not help find a solution.

I encourage anyone with problems with parts, and/or their suppliers, to make all reasonable efforts to resolve the matter directly with the supplier/manufacturer. If, after exhausting the reasonable possibilities, problem still remain, then a disapassionate description of the problem, the efforts to resolve it, and the final result will serve to alert others. Anything beyond that is not what the Forum is for. Thank you!

Reid Trummel
Austin-Healey Board Moderator