General TR Another trans popping out of 2nd

[TR Tom]

I know this subject has come up numerous times in the past, but unfortunately my story is a little more complicated.

A little history. When I bought my 65 TR4 40 years ago it was a typical used and abused $1,000 British car. One of the only things going for it was it had OD, but the box had lots of issues, one of which was popping out of 2nd on deceleration. Figured bad synchros.

I eventually had a well known TR transmission guy rebuild both the trans and the OD. Lots of money spent, but after two tries, no improvements, including the popping out of gear.

I then took it to my local British car specialist and had him try rebuilding it. Again, no improvement.

Finally, I found John at Quantum. He was able to fix all the multiple problems in both the tranny and OD, except, unfortunately, the problem with 2nd gear. Despite the fact that his shop and my house are about as far away from each other as they can be and still be in the same country, he went way beyond the call of duty trying to make it right. This included taking it apart twice, and hanging a different OD on the back. Eventually he even sent me another transmission to try in its place. When that didn’t fix it I knew he had done everything he could and I pretty much gave up. My transmission now has more frequent flyer miles than I do.

I figured it must be something external causing the problem, but over the years everything on this car has been rebuilt or replaced, including the engine, driveshaft, rear end, mounts, etc.

This weekend I was pondering the problem on a drive and realized that while I have spent hours fiddling with the top cover preloads, I’ve always been using the same cover. Thinking maybe something in the linkage was tweaked, I borrowed a friend’s known good top cover that has nice unworn Stanpart shift forks. Well, as you may have guessed, no change at all. I’m now wondering if I need a mechanic or a priest!

Any ideas out there? After 40 years I’m about to give up. Sorry such a long post, but as I said in the beginning, it’s complicated.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[mgedit]

When I had my TR6, it would pop out of 2nd on occasion as well (had saloon OD installed). I was at that time using redline fluid. Switched to 30W non-detergent oil and issue went away. I put it down to the synthetic being “too slippery”, but no proof. Not sure if trying different fluids will help in your case, but might be worth a try. Seems like you have tried pretty much everything else. Good luck! Cheers, Mike

 

[CJD]

My thoughts are top hat bushing and the 1-2 shift rod or sequencer balls. But it sounds like you have addressed all of these possibilities.

Since it happens with more than one tranny and cover, I would look at the relation of the shifter to the tunnel cover. There may be a bind with the boot seal or carpet preventing the lever from fully reaching 2nd. When you reach second it should be a solid stop...no mushiness at all or something is getting in the way.

 

[Hamish Racing]

Try without the gear lever gaiter sometimes they can prevent proper engagement thus premature die-engaging

 

[Milo]

The gearbox cover and rubber may be the culprit. Have you tried removing the rubber boot at the base of your gear lever. The hole in the tunnel doesn’t always align with the selectors and the base of the gear stick, so the rubber boot can press against the gear lever just slightly but enough to pop it out of gear. Just a thought. Cheers m

 

[TR Tom]

Thanks all

As far as fluid goes, way back when, I used regular old 90w, but started using VR1 20/50 about 20 years ago, then switched to non detergent 30w for the last 10. While I love MT-90 in all my other cars, it’s just too expensive to put in a leaky old British trans, so never tried it.

Have always test driven with the cover completely off after any work for the reasons stated above, plus if I do something stupid I don’t have to take everything apart to fix it. So while I bet that can definitely cause my problem, I’m afraid not the case with mine.

I can tell that the shifter is going far enough so the ball and spring is fully seating in the shift rod v-notch, if that makes sense. Looks like there is no adjustment anywhere in the linkage to fine tune gear engagement (or anything else). I’m thinking about the Hurst linkage on my Ford top loader where that can all be messed with. Seems like if I could get it to engage just a bit further it would stay in place, but maybe I’m on the wrong track.

Any other ideas out there? I know there is a lot of valuable knowledge on this forum.
Tom

 

[Hamish Racing]

All I can suggest from this side of the pond is to try and pick the brains of Tom and Pete Cox
Pete if of Cox and buckle fame ….
They are my go to brains for gearbox and overdrives

Pete Cox & Son Sports cars

Expertise that has kept a generation of Triumph owners on the road and track.

petecoxsportscars.co.uk

Could be worth investing in a call. ?

 

[sp53]

I have experienced this same problem with second gear. Once had a guy tell me to tighten up the pressure on the shifting rod ball so the rod is held tighter. I tried this but did not really help much. Does yours pop out of gear or fall out of gear going downhill.

Part of me feels the parts are generally old with many miles. Over the years, I have had some second gear function better when the engine is cool or cold then as things warmed up everything got a little sloppy and would start falling out of second. My experience with rebuilding tr3 transmissions is self taught, so not sure how a professional sees this. I will be curious to hear what you find.

steve

 

[mezy]

Just clutching at straws here as it sounds like you have tried just about everything already
is it possible the seletor fork is worn and is allowing the indent ball to lock in place but the syncro is not fully engaged,
if you put it in second gear and then on the over run going down hill, If you aply a small amount of pressure on the stick,
can you hold it in gear or does it still throw it out of gear,
check that when you have selected second gear, and the indent ball is engaged can you push the syncro ring any further.
suspect selector fork if you can.

 

[CJD]

Too bad I'm not closer to take a look. I guarantee they are missing something in the rebuild. My guess is.... the top hat....the 1/2 hub assembly is worn out...a bad or wrong shift rod/fork assembly. Each of these 3 possibilities would take a whole thread to cover...like I said...too bad I'm not closer to take a look.

 

[TR Tom]

To answer some of the above questions:

Temperature has no relation to when it happens.
If I hold the shifter I can keep it in gear, but if I forget or let go it pops out.
Not sure how to tell if gear is fully engaged when shifter is in the notch. Can’t see
what’s going on inside with the cover in place.

My gut feeling is the problem is in the top cover linkage. All the parts look correct and undamaged and between the two covers I have they seem to match. Am I correct in assuming there is no adjustments possible except tension of the ball and springs at the shift rod detentes? How about measurements that can be taken to insure shifter parts are correct and undamaged?
I have tested the release loads as shown in the factory manual and replaced the balls and springs, but who knows the quality of the aftermarket parts. Anybody know of reliable suppliers for these?

While I have spent a lifetime wrenching on old cars, I admit that transmissions are still pretty much a mystery to me. I had to R&R a chipped first gear on my old TR3 back in the 70’s, and it was such a PITA I’ve never had any desire to take one apart since. I guess if I fully understood the forces at work both trying to keep it in, or force it out of gear, I could better understand how to troubleshoot it. If anyone out there is able to explain that in relatively simple terms that sure would be great.

Again, thanks for all the help and suggestions,
Tom

 

[mezy]

try a static test,
Just put into second gear, you can feel the indent ball engage, can you now pull the gearstick beyond that point.
if so i would sugest the gear is not fully engaged when the indent ball is engaged,
or perhaps the the second gear notch in the selector shaft is worn, the ball may have worn a groove in it.
without seeing stuff like this it is only possible to stab in the dark.

 

[luke44]

ugh…chasing ghosts….dropped my trans off at Quantum today. if John can’t solve it…I got nothing…

 

[TR Tom]

Was wondering if John was still in business (all the good ones seem to be retiring these days) might have to give him a call

 

[luke44]

Yes he’s still going strong but he’s been 40+ years at it so who knows how much longer? Judging on the number of transmissions I saw being scheduled for pickup yesterday it’s going to be a Huge hole in the hobby when he stops.