Amateur vs. Professional Restoration

[Editor_Reid]

My recent visit to the auctions in Arizona got me to thinking about the differences between an "amateur" and a "professional" restoration. I'm really not sure that those are meaningful distinctions.

Why couldn't an amateur do every bit as good of a job as a professional? The "fully restored to concours gold standards" (a truly overused phrase at the auctions) Healeys in these auctions looked pretty good, but had a few little things to criticize. Polished dash pots for one.

Anyway, it got me to thinking, what do people think of as the difference between a professional and an amateur restoration? No one certifies "professional" Healey restorers, so I lean towards saying that it is a distinction without a difference. Restored is restored. Whether you've done it once or a hundred times, what you have at the end is a collection of Moss Motors parts, new paint and new chrome, and almost nothing remaining from that which left the factory.

If I screw on a bunch of Moss Motors parts, it's an amateur restoration. If someone who has done it a hundred times screws them on, it's a professional restoration. No diff in my book.

What say you?

 

[big6]

Reid, what you are talking about is acquired transferable skills developed from other facets of your life. Granted some “amateur restorations” are better than others due to skill levels, tools, and equipment.

I have previously restored three British cars and I am presently working on my fourth, a BJ7. I have also restored many American cars. I am not in the restoration business but my completed projects will be as good as or better than a “professional restoration”. I also acquire knowledge of the smallest details of the vehicle during restoration that if I had paid a “professional” to do the work would have not acquired. I really don’t like going to car shows but when I show my TR6 that I completed an “amateur restoration” usually is voted first in class even competing against “professional restorations”. As an example I completed the TR6 about eleven years ago. Since I was involved in the starting of the Euro Fest at the BMW assembly plant in Spartanburg, SC each 3rd week of October, I was voted 1st place 8 years and 2nd place 2 years. The two year miss was due to an industrial accident and I was unable to detail to the normal level because I also enjoy driving my cars. One of the 2 years that I received a 2nd place I received the popular vote best of class.

Yes, I concur amateur restorations can be as good as or better than professional restorations.

 

[anthony7777]

editor reid,the diff. about 4 years!, compared to lets say 7 days! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Randy Forbes]

[ QUOTE ]
Reid, what you are talking about is acquired transferable skills developed from other facets of your life. Granted some “amateur restorations” are better than others due to skill levels, tools, and equipment.

I have previously restored three British cars and I am presently working on my fourth, a BJ7. I have also restored many American cars. I am not in the restoration business but my completed projects will be as good as or better than a “professional restoration”. I also acquire knowledge of the smallest details of the vehicle during restoration that if I had paid a “professional” to do the work would have not acquired. I really don’t like going to car shows but when I show my TR6 that I completed an “amateur restoration” usually is voted first in class even competing against “professional restorations”. As an example I completed the TR6 about eleven years ago. Since I was involved in the starting of the Euro Fest at the BMW assembly plant in Spartanburg, SC each 3rd week of October, I was voted 1st place 8 years and 2nd place 2 years. The two year miss was due to an industrial accident and I was unable to detail to the normal level because I also enjoy driving my cars. One of the 2 years that I received a 2nd place I received the popular vote best of class.

Yes, I concur amateur restorations can be as good as or better than professional restorations.

[/ QUOTE ]
I concur.

BTW, we're in Greenville every year the week prior to Labor Day for the Z3/Z4 Roadster Homecoming.

Here's the gray car when it was two (2) days old.

And both cars at the hotel immediately following delivery at the Performance Center (mileages now are 68k/33k).

 

[Bruce Bowker]

If an amateur is good I would think they would spend far more time getting things absolutely perfect since it is their own car whereas a pro might say good enough (which could be 99.9% but not that 100%)

The main difference is $$$$$$.

"editor reid,the diff. about 4 years!, compared to lets say 7 days!"

There is no way I would want my car done in 7 days by the most professional of the professionals.

Bruce

Bruce

 

[SHG]

Reid,

I think it has a lot to do with the attained credibility. If a Healey is restored by Kurt Tanner, you know his reputation and you don't have to question the job he did. If I restored the Healey (LOL), you would have no clue as to my credibility as a restorer and would have to check every nut and bolt to figure out if I did it right. He has credibility. I have none. Hey, I might even use a dog collar instead of a spare tire strap. Would Kurt Tanner ever do that?

It's shorthand reliability and clear expectations. You know what you're getting from a known professional. From an amateur, it's a shot in the dark. And most people don't know enough, and won't work hard enough, to know if the amateur's job is right.

 

[anthony7777]

bruce bowker,thats the point,i wouldnt either!i was just being a bit- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif

 

[Bruce Bowker]

[ QUOTE ]
bruce bowker,thats the point,i wouldnt either!i was just being a bit- /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Got it. Not unlike those bike buillders on TV throwing together a bike in 7 days. Just what a want, someone half asleep at 3 am finishing my bike. No way in the universe would I buy something like that no matter how pro they are.
Nor those car guys either for that matter.
Bruce

 

[tahoe healey]

Maybe the professionals should have their own rating levels so that the good ones are not put in the same catagory as the short-cutter with stock in Bondo.

 

[John_Progess]

I think the biggest difference is what are you looking for in the final product, a driver or a concourse car. Anyone can purchase new parts and chrome and install them on a car and anyone can get straight panels if they spend enough time on them. These expensive cars have $20k to $30k just in the chrome. It depends on what quality you want not only experence. As has been said it boils down to $$$. I myself prefer drivers so if I find a part that is servicable but may show a little age, I use it. My cars are 40 to 50 years old not brand new.

John

 

[Skip & Lynne]

Reid there is a saying in antique aircraft restoration "take one thing at a time no matter how small and do the absolute best you can". This means everything no matter how small. I have seen so called professional restorations that looked like they were done by a blind man in a chicken coop and amateur restorations that were absolutely beautiful. All it takes is commitment, attention to detail, and patience to do it the best you can. I would be willing to bet that out there somewhere out there is some guy that can do a better job than any of the Pros right in his own single car garage. Not to diminish Curt Tanner in any way but when you do a car in 7 days all you have done is throw money and man hours at the thing so you can go to the auction and turn a buck. As for Moss parts well when you take a new fender from Moss sandblast it epoxy prime it fit it to the car and paint it what is the difference;the age of the metal? I have one airplane that the only original thing on it is the manufacturers data plate but according to the FAA it is still a 1928 airplane. A dedicated amateur can do just as good as the pros all he needs is the will to do it. Skip

 

[timbn2]

in my neophyete opinion you "restore" a healey when you clean up and use most (operative and subjective term) of the origional factory parts that came on the car. When everything is bought "new" and replaced, thats a rebuild.

I agree with the no distinction between the pro vs. ameture.

 

[nevets]

There is no question that some amateurs have the skills and know-how to achieve professional results, but for the most part amateur work is not up to the same standards as quality professional work - not in car restoration, not in home building, violin making, or any field that requires a lot of acquired knowledge and that all important “x-factor” - that special talent that separates the pretty good from the truly artful.

 

[Bruce Bowker]

The only difference in definition between amateur and professional is that one gets paid or makes a living at it. Ability is a different story.

Bruce

 

[John Loftus]

To even further muddy the waters, you have restorations where the majority of the specialised work is outsourced (body work, paint, chrome, upholstery, engine work) so the outcome in these areas depend on your vendors level of quality and knowledge of originality. A good restoration "manager" will try to control this end of the process by carefully picking vendors, knowing what the end result should be and demanding a high level of performance. Of course, some of the pro shops have most of this in-house to control quality and cost (for example, I understand Kurt Tanner's father does the bodywork and paint) You also have hobbyists that do almost all the work themselves. We've all seen, good and bad from both sides.

If originality is the goal then just "screwing on a bunch of Moss parts" won't cut it. Refurbishing original parts, finding NOS or tweeking good reproduction parts becomes necessary. Some Moss parts meet the originality criteria but they even admit that they have mostly replacement parts for drivers, not concours.

Both pro and amateur can set a level for the restoration that they are trying to achieve and in the end they should be judged on results, not pre-conceptions.

Cheers,
John

 

[nevets]

While technically correct, that's an oversimplification. People who make their living from a trade or a craft deserve more credit than that.

 

[Healey 100]

I have seen outstanding amateur restorations and all the restored cars I own were restored by me. None of my restorations approach concours levels, but my cars are presentable and run better than most old cars I have driven.

I am proud of my work but it in no way compares with the work done by good professional restoration shops. They have full time body and paint folks that paint and straighten sheet metal all day long day after day. They do outstanding work, it is hard to find many paint and body flaws in a professional restoration.

The pros know that the devil is in the details, virtually everything the eye can see is polished and corrected, even if it over-restored. There are no rough or unfinished features you can see in a professional restoration. My self, I find such minutia boring, I would rather spend my time driving or getting the car to run better.

I have experience with lovely professionally restored cars that don't run well at all. That is not where the money is, who can see how well a car drives? Does it overheat in traffic? Is is smooth at 70 mph? How much oil does she use? Can you drive it across the country? The best shops also pay attention to how the cars run, but they all know the most important thing is how do they look. If compromises are made, it is usually with the running gear.

Still, there are amateurs out there who can compete with the best pros -- I consider Roger Moment to be an amateur, he does almost all the work himself -- his cars are beautiful, win gold every time (having written the standard does not hurt here!).

 

[John Loftus]

[ QUOTE ]
I consider Roger Moment to be an amateur, he does almost all the work himself -- his cars are beautiful, win gold every time

[/ QUOTE ]

I did see one of Roger's car in person and agree, it was beautiful and top notch. He may be an amateur for his own cars, but doesn't he charge people to do restoration work on their cars? Wouldn't that make him a pro/am? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cheers,
John

 

[Bruce Bowker]

[ QUOTE ]
While technically correct, that's an oversimplification. People who make their living from a trade or a craft deserve more credit than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't giving credit one way of the other. I know professionals in many areas who do terrible work. I know amateurs who do superb work. And vice versa.

 

[AUSMHLY]

Let's throw in the mix, one professional vs another professional on quality and attention to detail. One professional may say that's good enough.

The amateur may have a higher standard before saying that's good enough.

Example would be the comment made on BJ about Curt Tanners attention to gap fit.

I think it comes down how qualified the restorer is about Healeys.

Having a professional Healey restorer vs a restoration shop that works on all cars and learns about the Healey as he goes. The learn as you go shop relies on the owner to point out the this is the way it should be. So if the owner over looks something or doesn't know that small detail, then the outcome of the professional rides on the owners knowlege. However if the owner really knows Healeys, then it may turn out better than giving your car to the Healey specific professional shop and telling them to run with it.

The amateur who works on his own car is limited to what he can do. Mecanical, electrical, body work? So he hires a professional to do that part of the work. Which brings us back to the professional who only works on Healeys, vs the professional who can also work on Healeys if you explain what you want. Does this make sense?