TR2/3/3A overdrive does not function

[sp53]

I am going to need to remove the tunnel cover because I cannot get this thing working. Perhaps the solenoid has a problem or the wire came off of the solenoid. Or perhaps the switches on the trans could be causing the problem. Either way the wires disappear into the tunnel and I cannot check and trace things back clearly.

This car never had OD so I installed the relay and made the harness from relay to the trans wires and used the old wiring that came on the transmission

I have it wired the way John suggested which is the same as the book. The picture looks simple.

I have the Amp gauge to C1 and W1 to the ignition switch.

The other 2 wires coming out the side of the trans cover I ran the lockout switch wire through the dash- on off -switch and to the relay W2 then put solenoid wire on C2.

I did have the relay clicking yesterday, but I think I had the wires turned around coming out of the tunnel. I hope I did not hurt anything. Hey KVH what happened when you had the yellow wires hooked up wrong? Smoke?

I took a picture through the oil fill on the tranny cover to help me see the wire for the trans switches. I think have everything correct

I have nothing at the dash switch plus I am not sure what all is needed to make the OD function. Should I be getting a click at the relay? Perhaps the lockout switches are causing the problem. Anyways I guess it is time to remove the tunnel.

steve

 

[KVH]

I am going to need to remove the tunnel cover because I cannot get this thing working. Perhaps the solenoid has a problem or the wire came off of the solenoid. Or perhaps the switches on the trans could be causing the problem. Either way the wires disappear into the tunnel and I cannot check and trace things back clearly.

This car never had OD so I installed the relay and made the harness from relay to the trans wires and used the old wiring that came on the transmission

I have it wired the way John suggested which is the same as the book. The picture looks simple.

I have the Amp gauge to C1 and W1 to the ignition switch.

The other 2 wires coming out the side of the trans cover I ran the lockout switch wire through the dash- on off -switch and to the relay W2 then put solenoid wire on C2.

I did have the relay clicking yesterday, but I think I had the wires turned around coming out of the tunnel. I hope I did not hurt anything. Hey KVH what happened when you had the yellow wires hooked up wrong? Smoke?

I took a picture through the oil fill on the tranny cover to help me see the wire for the trans switches. I think have everything correct

I have nothing at the dash switch plus I am not sure what all is needed to make the OD function. Should I be getting a click at the relay? Perhaps the lockout switches are causing the problem. Anyways I guess it is time to remove the tunnel.

steve

I'm going to respond by memory. I ought to know, because I just went thru all this. Here are my thoughts (and I'm assuming your wire colors match the wiring diagram for a TR4-4A):

1) If you crossed the wires (the yellow, and yellow/purple), you likely burned a wire badly enough that you'll need to rebuild that part of your wiring harness. That's what happened to me. But if you did, it's highly likely everything else is fine. It seems Triumphs burn up lots of wires, but manage to confine the damage. I doubt your burned anything up. It's obvious. I thought I'd driven through someone's bonfire;

2) The yellow purple to the Solenoid can easily slip out if the bullet slide is loose, and mine did that, too. So, you're right. There's no way to fix that even with Hobbit hands unless the tunnel comes off. Without a good connection there, you'll have nothing;

3) The yellow wires each go to one pole of the switches. Those wires, once the dash switch is activated, receive power from the black wire of the dash switch that leads into them. I believe your other dash switch wire will be yellow/green, and that's the wire that leads to pole W-2 of the relay where it receives power to deliver to each yellow wire which, as stated, leads to the top cover switches. Be sure your harness has ground wires leading to the other terminal of each top cover switch and to a secure ground on the cover;

4) Double check the wires at the relay;

5) When testing the solenoid, I make sure the ignition key is on and the shifter in 2nd or 3rd, whether or not the shifter makes any difference;

6) Regardless of wire colors on your setup, make sure the dash switch gets power from W-2 (yellow/green) when the ignition is on. For me, that means that the yellow/green wire sends power to the black wire on the switch which, again, then leads to the two yellow wires leading to each top cover switch;

Hope that helps.

 

[KVH]

Further to my last post, I looked at your photo above, left. I'm not familiar with your car, but for mine, the lead to the top cover switches is yellow, and yours appears to have a brown or purple stripe. That would be wrong on my car. The yellow/purple goes to the solenoid. Solid yellow to the top switches. In fact, your own diagram is showing solid yellow to the top switches. Maybe you do have this wired incorrectly. Sorry if perhaps you already explained this.

 

[sp53]

I should have purchased a new wiring harness and things would have been simpler and clearer. On the 2 hot wires C1 and W1, I used white wire and the W2 and C2 I used green for one and yellow for the other, so it is confusing. At one point I did have the W2 and C2 flipped around, so the pictures are wrong in some cases. I took the picture through the cover to see what wire went on the switches and then change them when I saw they were wrong. The wiring should be correct now. I will try and get the cover off today if my neck does not go out and cause a headache.

Anyways once the cover is off, I will do some test light work on the switches and solenoid. John was nice enough to add some trouble shooting information about the power sources and positions. I am not sure if the solenoid can be fixed or what, but it would probably be smart to get a new one. At the time I was looking into new solenoids, people were saying the new ones did not last for more than a year.

The solenoid is probably stock to this transmission so who knows the condition. I bought this transmission off a car that was burned up in garage fire. The OD world was new to me and I installed the trans taking a chance it would work out. It still might.

steve

 

[KVH]

I was zero in on that solenoid first. I wouldn’t remove the top cover and worry about testing the cover switches until you at least know that the solenoid is working correctly.

 

[groupdeville]

My Christmas-wish is that someone (Revington?) would reproduce the manual overdrive shifter linkage that was used by the Triumph assembly plant in Belgium (Imperia) in the 1950s. Seems like it would eliminate 2/3 of the issues that we all have with A-type overdrives. (The other 1/3 is mostly leaking)

 

[sp53]

I took the tunnel out and did some testing. First I had no power at C1, and then I remembered Geo had me put a fuse in and the fuse was blown. I was kinda happy but thought heck just took the seats out! I replaced the fuse and pulled the over drive out with a new switch on the dash (one I found in a box), but it did not click. I was almost happy it did not work because that meant I did not take the seats for nothing. Perhaps I blew the fuse a second time-- I just thought of that; I need to check.

I put an OHM meter on the trans switches on the black side of the switch with the other end on the ground bolt for the switches, and there was continuity between all of the black wires. I moved the probe to white side of the trans switches and they were an open circuit.

I kinda do not know where to go from here so please guide other than buy a new solenoid and just put that in and see what happens. However, I see it needs adjustment, and I do not want to buy one. I want to clean and fix this one if possible. Somebody here said they cleaned one up and it worked; anybody have experience

steve

 

[KVH]

When you replaced the fuse, power returned to C-1? Better pics of your relay and connecting wires would help.

You said: "The other 2 wires coming out the side of the trans cover I ran the lockout switch wire through the dash- on off -switch and to the relay W2 then put solenoid wire on C2."

Are you saying your on-off switch wires go: one to W-2 and the other to both lockout switches shown in your pics?

You also said: "On the 2 hot wires C1 and W1, I used white wire and the W2 and C2 I used green for one and yellow for the other. . ."

I'm only seeing one white wire in your pic. I'm also not seeing a yellow wire on C-2.

The wire to your solenoid doesn't appear to be yellow. It appears to be yellow with a purple stripe. Further, your wires to the lockout switches are yellow with a purple stripe, and those wires (regardless of color code irregularity) do not go to your solenoid. I'm confused seeing the same wiring color coding to those three points of contact in your pics.

I think you'll get this thing working soon. You're on it. Hopefully, something simple.

 

[CJD]

OK, going from your pictures...

The double shift switches indicate that you have the later OD, and the wires look correct. With an ohm meter on the light colored wire, on either shift switch, the circuit should go to ground whenever you shift to 2,3, or 4th gear. At all other times it should not be grounded.

The light colored wire on the shift switches is the one that should go to the switch, and then to C2 on the relay.

Remember, the relay solenoid should only click with the ignition on, the dash switch on AND the shifter in 2/3/4.

If you want to test the solenoid, just run a jumper from the solenoid wire to a hot wire. It should "click". The top rubber cover comes off, and you can clean the inside of the solenoid. It has 2 coils. The main coil only energizes initially, but a short rod trips a contact that cuts out the main coil after the solenoid rod pulls in. The secondary coil is always connected to the wire. This means the initial trip of the solenoid energizes BOTH coils to pull the the rod with a lot of force. But, as soon as the rod moves, it trips a contact to de-power the main coil. That is why tripping the OD initially pulls 10 amps, but that immediately drops to 1 amp.

 

[sp53]

On my relay C2 is yellow then goes to the brown wire on the solenoid

On my relay C1 has the fuse which is black because of the fuse holder--- then changes to white out of the fuse and goes to amp meter.

On my relay W1 is white and goes to the ignition

On my relay W2 is green and goes to the switches

Sorry for the confusion the original wires are faded and difficult to follow. They are brown for the solenoid and white and brown for the switches. Where I went wrong is I kept the shifter in neutral. I am glad you told me about having to be in gear because I totally missed that.

John I think you might be incorrect about C2 because what I am seeing is C2 goes to the solenoid coils.

After I get some coffee I will hook up the shifter and check things out; oh I still could be wrong my brain was in high school in the sixties, so please advise. Thanks you guys. I love this forum.

steve

 

[KVH]

"John I think you might be incorrect about C2 because what I am seeing is C2 goes to the solenoid coils."

Yes, I think John meant the lighter colored wires go to 'W-2' on the relay.

Gnawing question I have is this: What is the relay really doing, and why is it needed if we have both ignition and column switches to activate in any event? Is it somehow related to the need for higher power at the relay winding to operate the solenoid? I guess a refresher lesson would help. John?

 

[sp53]

Yes good question I do not know. Johns has been one of my best teachers so if he was mistaken earlier, it is totally coo. Hopefully he knows question.

Update, I put the car in second gear and turned the key on and everything seems to work. The relay clicks and the Solenoid has something moving inside of it. I presume from the relay clicking it when making contact for the circuits.

I am thinking I should put the tunnel on loose and go for a drive. However, is there some mystical thing I should know about Over Drives. I did hear to make sure the OD is turned off when you go into reverse. One thing I thought of was the gap on solenoid at the bottom with that screw. I guess it seem fine; it works and it seems solid.

Steve

,

 

[CJD]

You're correct, Steve, I was wrong. Old eyes?!?

Your wiring sounds correct, so long as the dash switch in in the wire between W2 and the tranny switches. Just read your last post...so wiring is good!

The relay is there because the solenoid takes at least 10 amps to activate. It reduces the amperage through the other switches, presumably so they will last longer.

Steve, when you test drive, stabilize the car at a set speed and watch the tach when you engage the OD. You should feel the engagement, and the tach will drop about 500 rpm. It is just as important to check for the 500rpm increase when you disengage. Hopefully it will operate properly both ways. Just remember that if you see the drop in rpm, but it does not increase when your turn the switch off, then it is stuck in OD. It will drive fine, but must not be reversed until you get it un-stuck. Once everything is working correctly, it will not be possible to reverse with the OD engaged, as the tranny switches will protect you.

For testing do not use the clutch, as you want to "feel" the engagement.

 

[KVH]

And don’t forget, Steve, if you do get stuck in overdrive there’s a procedure that works near flawlessly to get unstuck. Like John says, don’t dare go in reverse, and don’t block your path by parking nose to a wall.

You’ll need the ability to drive forward just to get home to begin the recommended “un-stucking” procedure.

That procedure requires only one tool. A special one. A hammer. You know, like bang bang. Like when we become apes and thugs. So good of a company calling themselves Laycock de Normanville to provide technical advice on how best to swing a hammer.

 

[sp53]

Thanks you guys. I am still recovering from crawling around on my side to get under the dash and the removing of the seats. So it will be a while before I get the car seats and tunnel installed. Beside it usually pours rain in April around here, and May too.

One thing I notice when checking the trans switches, there was some resistance showing on the ohm meter. The switches did not have zero ohms. I had the car in second gear with power on at the OD dash switch and the reading on the white wire on the trany switch was 0.9 and .02 on the black. I figured the resistance was because the system was energized with the battery. But I do not know, only a guess. My fear is I do not know what would happen if the resistance in the switches is a problem.

If the resistance in the switches is normal, I should do a test drive next week.

Thanks again for your support, I love this forum Steve

 

[charleyf]

Thanks you guys. I am still recovering from crawling around on my side to get under the dash and the removing of the seats. So it will be a while before I get the car seats and tunnel installed. Beside it usually pours rain in April around here, and May too.

One thing I notice when checking the trans switches, there was some resistance showing on the ohm meter. The switches did not have zero ohms. I had the car in second gear with power on at the OD dash switch and the reading on the white wire on the trany switch was 0.9 and .02 on the black. I figured the resistance was because the system was energized with the battery. But I do not know, only a guess. My fear is I do not know what would happen if the resistance in the switches is a problem.

If the resistance in the switches is normal, I should do a test drive next week.

Thanks again for your support, I love this forum Steve

One other option is to put the car up on jack stands so that the rear wheels are off the ground. I prefer to do all 4 wheels up. Then you can start the car, put it in gear and use the overdrive and switches without the worry of being able to get back home if something bad happens.
Charley

 

[KVH]

That’s a good option, but when I was about to do that with a mechanic friend helping me, he turned and asked, “Now this thing doesn’t vibrate much does it?” I chickened out:

 

[charleyf]

That’s a good option, but when I was about to do that with a mechanic friend helping me, he turned and asked, “Now this thing doesn’t vibrate much does it?” I chickened out:

It worked for me to check out my new (to me)overdrive. You only need maybe 1000-1500 rpm. That should not give you much vibration.
Charley

 

[sp53]

Well the OD is functioning. I went 25mph and hit the switch, the OD engaged firmly with a little jolt and the RPM dropped about maybe 700, but I was not paying too much attrition to RPM. I then shifted out of OD at about 3500 and it rose to about 4500 which did kind of surprise me. After that I went back to the garage.

I am using just 30 wt. oil in the transmission and things seem to work.

This is probably a real dump question, but other than going on the freeway, is the OD designed for racing or going up hills?

Once in OD should I leave it is OD and go from 2nd into 3rd and from 3rd to 4th? Or do people shift in and out of OD as they go through the gears somehow?

steve

 

[Hamish Racing]

In my 3a I have mine set up for use on 234 gears
With my drive gearing ( 4.1diff) Early tr6 gearbox A type od, 3rd od is the same as 4th
I don’t use 2nd od ( 150+bhp)
I do use 3rd od instead of 4th as it’s an easier quicker change in competition when I know I don’t need 4th. Or “making progress” on nice twisty lanes where flicking in and out of 3rd and 3rd od for the bends is fun.
Otherwise 4th od is to get that top - top speed ( with my gearing) or for more comfortable slightly lower Rev cruising.
I also have a monetary switch and a logic box which automatically drops the od out when changing gears or turning off ignition. You can of course turn it off with the switch too. Located on the dash so my fingers can operate it without moving hand off the wheel.
some ( healeys etc) have the switch fitted to the gear lever knob.