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TR6 TR6 J-Type overdive hard engaging

R_Lyle

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Just installed a used J-Type overdrive unit in my TR6 this past weekend and I thought it would be a good idea to test drive the car. Got the speed up to about 60 MPH in fourth gear and flipped the switch to engage it. Wham into gear it went with a sudden shock to my body. No damage to the car and the transmission sounded okay but the sudden impact of the overdrive unit kicking into place makes me wonder if something may get damaged over time. Is there anyway to soften the overdrive engaging? I've changed the 30W weight non-detergent fluid everytime I drive the car just to try to clean out the built up 90W that was in the transmission previously (I know the smell of the 90W fluid).
 
R_Lyle said:
... 10W-30 weight non-detergent ...

Isn't this supposed to be straight 30w non-detergent? Thats what I use in my OD and it shifts as smooth as an automatic trans.
 
Yes straight 30w non-detergent oil (sorry I fixed the post). It's not an automatic transmission shift by any means. It's a hard jolt. Makes you a little nervous. I've driven another members TR6 car ("Dead Last") and his shifts very nicely.
 
You can always soften the shift by using the clutch: Depress the clutch just like making a regular shift, but flip the OD switch instead, then release the clutch like a regular shift. With the J-type, I find that I have to wait a beat after flipping the switch, as the OD shift is not instantaneous.

I generally do that when shifting under light throttle. At full throttle, the shock is much less, so I generally don't use the clutch at full throttle.
 
So I have some observations from also installing an J O/D in my TR6.
It was a rebuilt unit from a know east coast supplier.
He recommends and only warranties if non detergent 30W is used.

My TR6 shifts harder and quicker when rev's up in third gear than it does in 4th gear when I engage the O/D around 3500 rpm for hiway driving. So I went web surfing and found a Buckeyes Triumph tech article.

It talks about the pressure differences between the A type and the J type.
It seems to say that the J type having a different system from the A type does not operate at the high pressure and as such should have softer shifting and also as a result of the lower pressure may also be slower to shift as the pressure must build to accomplish the shift.


This article is in the technical wiki under Triumph, Back ground and General Info, Buckeye Triumph Org archived. It's in the tech articles there.
This is extracted from the article.

The block diagram above shows the interrelationship of the hydraulic components. The basic operation is as follows: A cam on the mainshaft drives the pump whenever power is transmitted to the rear wheels. The gearbox oil is the hydraulic fluid. The relief valve pressure setting is controlled by a mechanical linkage to the dashpot. If the operating valve is not operated, indicating that the overdrive should be is the direct drive mode, the dashpot is in the relaxed position and the relief valve is set to a very low pressure (~20 psi) via the mechanical linkage (blue arrow). The oil from the pump flows through a filter and then on to the operating pistons, operating valve and through the relief valve to the lubrication channels and then to the bottom of the case. The ~20 psi is insufficient to move the operating pistons. When the operating valve is turned on via the steering column switch and solenoid, oil flows through the operating valve into the dashpot causing the dashpot piston to move off the relaxed position and increase the pressure required to operate the relief valve. As the pressure builds, the dashpot piston continues to move and continues to adjust the relief valve operating pressure until the dashpot piston reaches a stop at which point the relief valve pressure setting is ~ 450 psi. The increased hydraulic pressure is also applied to the operating pistons which will eventually create enough force to overcome the force of the release springs and move the sliding clutch from being engaged with the annulus to being engaged with the brake ring thus shifting the unit into overdrive. When the operating valve is released, the fluid in the dashpot bleeds off slowly causing a gradual lowering of the relief valve setting and in turn, a gradual lowering of the hydraulic pressure and a gradual movement of the sliding clutch back to the annulus for the direct drive mode.

The operation described above is in sharp contrast to the A type OD. In the A type, the pressure relief is fixed at between ~350 psi and ~450 psi, depending on the model. The oil is pumped into an accumulator where it is stored. The stored fluid is used to move the operating pistons very quickly (< .5 second) when the operating valve is turned on. For the J type, after the delay moving the dashpot, additional time is required to actually pump the fluid necessary to move the operating pistons. <span style="font-weight: bold">The J type on my '76 TR6 typically takes about 2 seconds to engage after the switch is operated.</span> The difference in the feeling of the two is very pronounced; the A type slams into OD like when popping the clutch and the J type slides into OD much like an automatic in need of maintenance. There is no question that shocks from the A type engagement can be hard on the OD unit itself as well as the drive train behind the OD. Care when engaging and disengaging the A type can probably minimize any damage.

So I think mine is operating ok. Comments? The reason I say ok is I have a Spitfire with an original from factory J type O/D and as I recall (as it I have not driven it in 1.5 years as I am rebuilding it)it seemed to shift right now, more like 3rd gear engagements in my TR6. But I may just have been driving it harder. Hence a quicker engagement.

FWIW
 
Regarding the "hard" engaging jolt, it's been my experience that a bit of a jolt is normal. I've had two professionally restored Jtypes, and an old stock one. All tended to engage with a little jolt. It's normal.

And, straight from the horse's mouth, John Esposito at Quantumechanics: no need to use your clutch when shifting into or out of your Laycock OD, just feather the throttle and flip the switch:

<span style="font-weight: bold">April 2003 – Topic of the Month – Proper shifting of a Laycock overdrive </span> OK everybody, calm down out there. We have received some interesting emails over the last few months asking (and telling) us about the proper way to shift in and out of overdrive on the Laycock deNormanville overdrives as used on the British cars (A, J, LH, D and compact A types). We received some spirited responses – use the clutch, don’t use the clutch, etc. I would like to express our opinion on the proper method to shift in and out of these overdrive units.

First let me admit that when I had cars with overdrive, especially Big Healeys, I did not shift the recommended way. It is way too cool and impossible to resist the temptation to pull up next to someone at 50 or 60 MPH and, as you shift into overdrive, accelerate away into the great beyond. This usually gets very interesting and surprised looks from the other drivers and passengers and really impresses the people who are with you in the car. What was that, warp drive? Like, you still have another gear? How many gears does his car have???!!!!

It is also way too cool to kick down from overdrive at 50 or 60 and watch the expression on the faces of other people as the engine revs on the downshift. This is especially true on the Big Healey, as the 6 cylinder really sounds great at speed. You get the fantasy of what it must feel like downshifting at the end of the straight at LeMans.

Anyway, back to the proper way to do it. Let’s think for a minute why overdrives were put in cars in the first place. I mean after all, anyone can put in a 5th gear on a transmission, why an overdrive? First of all the British never do anything the way we expect or anyone else does it. This was especially true in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s and is why we have such interesting cars from that period. Laycock overdrives are really like a manually initiated mini automatic transmission. (I personally think a guy named Rube Goldberg had a major part in their design). The important thing to remember is that it was added as an option on most cars in order to reduce engine RPM (and consequently wear) on the highway and increase fuel mileage. Secondarily it was also used to increase the number of speeds forward, giving a better selection of gear ratios for driving.

Given this objective, we can understand that the proper way to shift into overdrive is to reduce the engine RPM’s, not increase the road speed of the vehicle. In fact, it is somewhat damaging to the overdrive clutch to accelerate under power during the shift process. This is akin to slipping the clutch or power shifting during the normal shifting of a regular gear. It can tend to lead to premature overdrive brake ring and clutch wear and failure. <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">You do not need to use the regular clutch pedal at all</span></span>. Get to a reasonable speed, say 45 to 50 MPH. Activate the overdrive switch. As the overdrive engages, feather the throttle so that the road speed of the car remains the same and the engine RPM’s are reduced. Voila, you have shifted the overdrive with minimum stress to it and now are cruising at a lower engine RPM. Objective achieved. Now you can accelerate to any cruising speed you desire as the overdrive is fully engaged. It is not recommended shifting into overdrive at too low a speed as this also can cause stress on the clutch and lugging the engine is not a good practice either. In fact the early overdrives had a mini Lucas centrifugal type regulator on the output shaft of the overdrive that would not allow the overdrive to be engaged below a specified speed.

Shifting out of overdrive is the reverse of this process. Turn the overdrive switch to the off position. As the overdrive disengages back to normal drive, push down on the throttle to keep the car’s road speed the same and increase the engine RPM until the overdrive shift is complete. This again minimizes wear to the overdrive clutch and brake ring. You can now decelerate the car as you would normally. Again, you would not want to shift out of overdrive at too high a speed as you could over-rev the engine and cause damage to it as a result.

As you can see, the basic objective of proper shifting is to reduce the wear on the clutch during the shifting process. This can easily be done with some practice and will significantly increase the life of the overdrive unit.
We have determined this shift procedure from observing many overdrive units and the wear on the key overdrive clutch components, as well as just plain common sense.

We hope this will clear up any questions on the proper way to shift these overdrives to reduce the wear on them and keep them running longer. Most likely we will generate a new set of questions on the procedure, but that is what it is all about! As always, comments and feedback are welcome! Thanks! John
 
vagt6 said:
And, straight from the horse's mouth, John Esposito at Quantumechanics: no need to use your clutch when shifting into or out of your Laycock OD, just feather the throttle and flip the switch:
Yes, well, there are lots of things that John believes that others don't. Like for example, using the factory-specified oil will cause the OD to instantly malfunction. You'd think they would have noticed something like that.

Feathering the throttle does not reduce the energy stored in the flywheel & crankshaft, which is what makes the bang as the OD engages.
 
A lot said, yet very little said, to address the problem you have here.The clutch in the OD is Not working as it should.It is an oil bathed clutch and the materials can and may be damaged by the wrong lube,NO lube,or some other past abuse.Since the fun factor of exploratory surgery is low,I would suggest taking it easy on it for about 1k, then clean and flush (dont forget the filters!)If it doesnt improve it would be best to re-build it.IMHO I like a nice 50wt,but our summers are hot in Ks.
MD(mad dog)
 
Out here on the west coast more and more TR owners seem to be switching their tranny's out for the 5 speed conversion, which eliminates the problem all together, as for my TR6 had the J-Type overdrive installed 26 yrs ago and will continue to run it until replacement parts are no longer available, liking the O/D in 3rd & 4th occasionally to this day I forget to use either method mentioned above to engage/disengage and Wham but you know what I know it's doing what it do, definitely something you'll eventually get acquainted with, plus the long term advantages of O/D on your engine (less rpm's same speed=less wear & tear) my O/D is wired to what was formally the window washing switch in dash toyed with the idea of getting a decal that said Nitro.

With that said the majority of my engage/disengage are relatively smooth (from a j-type O/D standpoint) when engine speed, sound and feel come together, I've come to accept the hard engage/disengage as part of the unit and part my TR'n along with that huge grin on my face not paying attention, TRust me you think that startles you, it's small in comparison to the what the &%$* reaction when you flip the O/D switch and nothing happens or with switch engaged O/D goes in & out causing the TR to lunge/surge as you're tooling along @70 mph, after all that's part of the adventure we forked the money over for when our LBC's decided to choose us to own. As with any new major mechanical install there's the break in period, not just for the parts meshing together but for you the driver to adjust how you drive, what to expect, personally, for my high mileage driving noticing an increase in hard engage/disengage is mental note for some preventive maintenance: Getting my O/D serviced, screen cleaned, fluid topped off, to even switch mounted on tranny itself replaced. tr6nitJulius
 
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