TR2/3/3A Not for the faint of heart: Fender Horror Show

[RJCOX]

When I get stumped on how something is going, I move to something else whilst I cogitate on my next (or my last) move. My seats are coming along now, though I can't seem to make a couple of wrinkles in the "corners" fill up. I probably need to get the cover a bit warmer. The dash is done, gauges clean and packed away, and my welding skills are such that I decided to see just how bad my front wings (fenders) were. I wondered why the PO had done so much to the rest of the car but never did anything (other than stripping) the front fenders. I now know why.

When I got the car I was so enamored of it that I only looked at the good parts (and there are a lot of good parts) and went with blinders on about the not so good parts. I knew the front wings had rust (rust outs) in the usual places, and seeing the repair panel the PO had in the parts bin (along with lots of brand new goodies) encouraged me that the left wing (to match the single repair panel he had purchased) was easy enough to fix. Hey, just weld the new panel in, right? But wait, you also have to cut the bad part out. Of course, you should true up the dents too.

I avidly devoured CJDs post on his bodywork/restoration of his TR. What an incredible accounting of his project. Armed with the knowledge he shared, I bravely went out and learned to weld (skills still getting better) and repaired my seat frames. At the risk of sounded too vain, I think I did a pretty good job (no pics, sorry) thanks John. Feeling braver I took a wing (driver side) down from the shelf and (still blinded by my infatuation with the car) went about coming up with a game plan. The only plan I could come up with involved taking it to the recycling center (that is still on the table, maybe plan C).

Warning: The following images may be disturbing for sensitive viewers.



The oil canning vertically covers two-thirds of the fender. The bonus is that the lower third is almost rusted away completely.



On top of that, there were 9 (possibly more) holes drilled into the skin of the fender and most were plugged/brazed.



The rest of the bronze ended up here and whoever "fixed" it didn't even try to hammer out top of the fender at all.



It is rather discouraging. I keep telling myself that it's bad, but I can't make it worse. However, as this year has me feeling much older (neck/back problems coming back to haunt me) I have to consider whether this is a waste of time? Is this fixable, can this be brought back to life? The old saying regarding sow's ears is echoing in my brain pan, but I'm not wise enough in the ways of cars, let alone Triumphs to know the difference yet.

By the way, the passenger side is slightly better, currently more my speed. It has the same rust-out, 99% less brazing, and no oil-canning. The flange on it needs some help as well, sections to cut out and replace but I can see the good in it.

I'll work on it, to the best of my ability, but consider looking for a good used fender. I did see one in California, but the price plus shipping was a bit high. It would be awesome to find one (or someone who knew what they were doing) near enough to drive out to. East Coasters, feel free to give me a shout out.

 

[M_Pied_Lourd]

Sorry to say, but I even might be thinking about plan C...

Cheers,
Tush

 

[CJD]

Definitely worth setting aside for a while to see if another comes up before you have to work on it. Be very careful buying used body parts too. There is a lot that does not show up in pictures on ebay. If at all possible either inspect it yourself or buy from someone who can be trusted. Bondo hides a lot of problems!

 

[RJCOX]

I was just looking (re-looking) John and Lionel's threads, and feel like such a whiny baby, but I do have to think of myself somewhat.

In 1990 I had just dropped my then girlfriend (now my wife) and her little sister and was heading home when a drunk driver hit me head on. He then proceeded to try and "save" me by trying to extract me while still belted in my car trapped behind the steering wheel. Needless to say, the damage was done, but not fully realized until months later, and again and again in years following.

Most of my days have been good and I am thankful that my feet hit the ground first daily (well, most days). I forget and sometimes push myself too much, and pay the price. When I redid my seats, one day of work took me three days to recover (I wasn't being very efficient, used a 2 lb sledge and angle grinder instead of hammer and dolly and sandblasting).

I don't mind the recovering. It reminds me I am alive, but I do have to consider the diminishing returns.

I did have an idea to bounce off you (and anyone else listening), since the fender is pretty much a basket case and I can do no wrong here, and I happen to have a new set of pneumatic shears, what do you think of cutting away the flange starting at the bend (right where it turns down inside the bonnet) and fabbing the flange en masse? Cutting away the flange would allow me to get a dolly at the ripple near the leading edge and true up what's there. The oil-canning is something I still need to think through, but it's a skill that I should learn anyhow.

In the meantime, the search for a decent (repairable) fender that I can afford is on.

 

[CJD]

In the case of that wing I don't think you're being whiny at all. I'm not sure either Tush or I would tackle it...and I am sure Lionel would just build a whole new one from scratch. Rust and dents are one thing...but the extent of the sloppy body work is another altogether. Remember that I had 4 wings to work with, so was able to choose the best 2. The other 2 were not worth trying to even give away and went to the scrap yard...

 

[M_Pied_Lourd]

Yeah, I’m not so concerned about the top flange piece that I think is fixable. It’s the main body of the panel that looks to have had quite a bit of previous work done to it outside of the rusted bottom. But, there’s no harm in trying if you really want to try...as you say, you can’t make it worse. There’s always something to learn even in failure...but, if your time is more valuable, then I still say it makes more sense to start with something better.

Good luck.

Cheers,
Tush.

 

[mrv8q]

TRF seems pretty proud of their new fenders, but I don’t know if that is in your budget.

 

[DavidApp]

Almost hard to get your bearings on the exact location on the wing there is so much rust/damage. Thought I had a tough time but it looks like mine were near perfect when I got the 1/2" of bondo off. The flanges were mostly good.

If you are looking for replacement wings have you considered the new ones from The Roadster Factory. Not cheap but they say they are off new tooling and fit good.(the Gray ones on their site)
E Bay you may get lucky or you may get taken but at best it is an old wing.

Good luck.

David

 

[RJCOX]

The best one on ebay was unfortunately in California, and TRFs panels (the new ones) have been touted as being spot on. Had a conversation with my Dad and he's with me on trying to save the panel, while of course saving up for a new one.

After re-reading Lionel's thread, I might have the mental tools to fabricate a new flange. It would be nice to have a metal brake and or an english wheel but unless I find one of those in my Easter basket, I'll just invest in some 16 or 18 gauge. I had laid out a left-hand repair panel patterned off of my TRF one that came with the car and working thru the steps in my head, it didn't look to hard to fab. Took some scrap 18 that I had and played with it to see if I could create the rear flange of the wing (just about 4 inches of it) and it came out pretty nice. Got my new hammers and dollies dirty and scuffed up and my body thanked me for using an 11 oz hammer for a change.

I am using a short piece of heavy I-beam as an anvil. It's got a nice sharp edge that's been great when making those angled bends.

My challenge will be how to maneuver and or brace the fender/wing while I am working on it. Space isn't at a premium, but work surfaces are. Currently we have 4 cars, 3 snow blowers, 3 tractors and 20 years worth of tools and furniture in the garage/workshop. However, with two TRs in various states of disassembly we've spread out a bit, but can still get around fine. I need to find some bench space to lay the fenders or the cowl down to trace the radius/curve. I thought I might trace my Dad's fender, but I remember him telling me the story of his chance encounter with a guard-rail and thought better of it. I still might just to check.

My TR came with two front cowls. One is primed and shows no evidence of bondo (ripples or the like from the back) and has little, if I remember properly (rose-colored glasses?) major damage, just small dents from road debris that I assume the PO was planning on filling with bondo. The other is yellow (may be original) and has damage on lower corners visible. My dad's cowl is worse, so he's laid claim to the yellow one, but I get to keep the headlights (he purchased new ones from TRF). I think several patterns may be in order, and I'll compare them. It would be nice to have access to a pristine edge. Barring that, I'll shoot for close and see how I do. Getting it exactly right on the first try would be cool, but I'd be thrilled if it just worked.

So, moving on to another section of the fender/wing, about oil-canning; since I am going to cut out and weld in a repair panel, would I handle the canning first? Should I consider cutting the whole section out? The canning is still a bit away from the wheel arch so I could, theoretically, create a panel saving the wire. I'm not sure I'd want to waste a pre-made repair panel on this exercise, and it wouldn't (I don't think) solve my canning issue. "Wasting" $10 on a piece of sheet metal (16 gauge) from tractor supply is more what I'm about. That panel cost someone a bit more, and I'm most likely going to need it if I end up buying a used fender (don't they all rust out there?).

I'm probably trying to justify spending the time on this fender, but I agree with John, I need to build these skills. So once again into the breach!

I will do my best to take pics as I go along, even if I fail completely.

 

[DavidApp]

I think that 16 gauge may be thicker than you need. Best I can recall I used 18 gauge for the wing patch and the flange that I made for the rear edge of the wing to body junction. A harbor freight stretcher and shrinker did the trick getting the profile of this piece.
Brings back memories as I look through the photos.

David

 

[LionelJrudd]

Ron, nothing ventured nothing gained.

Some of the positives I see are:
1. using a reasonable sized lower repair panel removes a good number of damaged / previously repaired bits from the equation.
2. If you have a commercial repair section, use all of it for the above reason. Should things go belly up, you can cut along your weld and reuse the repair section on your next attempt. The repair section should also be preformed with the correct curvature for the guard.
3. The top flange can be removed in its entirety and remade in clean metal. This is so much easier to fix back to the guard than thin, cleaned old section.
4. Top flange consists of vertical section attached to the guard proper and the horizontal section with the cage nuts which are made separately and the shape of each can be tweaked as you go.
5. The vertical bit is simply cutting flat metal. Great practice with the new shears.
6. The horizontal section has narrow flanges on either side. Because they are narrow, they are easily done with hammer and dolly / anvil as one long section. (Better still, use a couple of lengths of angle iron in the vice and hammer the flanges over. ) The large radius curve of this section can be done by hand over a drum, bending a little at a time and then hammering the flange to help it shrink or stretch, depending on which flange.
7. Apart from getting as much dents out as possible before welding, you can defer concerns re oil canning because your work may introduce other minor issues (not being rude!) that will need to be dealt with then.

Considerations:
1. How bad is the rust pitting closer to the top of the panel? Is the metal solid enough to be welding in your patches?
2. I made a template from my better panel using ply board so I had a permanent record of what the curvature of the full length of the guard. The risk is that as you weld the the top flange, it could shrink the metal and alter the curvature. So when doing the welding, keep the work cool by moving around and taking your time, checking against your template all the time.
3. The template can be clamped against a pole on your bench and then the guard clamped to the template. This holds the guard up in a normal position and you can see clearly any variations as you work.
4. Mark the template with the locations of all cage nuts and slots for easy transfer back to the repaired section.

Go for it!

 

[RJCOX]

My commercial repair panel (store bought) is just a bit too narrow to replace all of the canned section. Though the rust is evident in the flange and the lower part of the wing, there arent many pinholes towards the tio of the fender.

Re: 16 gauge vs. 18 metal, while at one hardware store I frequent, i found 12x22 inch sheet metal panels in their welding section. It's a farm oriented place (Tractor Supply) and they were quite reasonable, but they only carry 16 and 22 gauge but either for less than 10 dollars usd. There wasn't even a slot for it. John had mentioned using heavier in that area and it would save searching. I'll do some internet searches for 18 and see if I can source it locally.

I read your post again tonight and paid particular attention to your fender post. It's why my plan to make the attempt is formulating.

I appreciate you taking the time to offer me guidance, it means the world to me.

 

[RJCOX]

By the by:
The front tub, inner fenders are all done up, so I hoped to get part or all of my pattern from there and the cowl. I'm not confident of either of the front guards having enough of the correct shape any longer.

 

[RJCOX]

https://https://s.amsu.ng/J4JrhypO7M7N

 

[Graham H]

I was able to use repair sections for my front fenders but they did need a lot of work to get them up to speed

Graham

 

[DavidApp]

I went to a steel supply house locally. They have a section with precut pieces 24" x 36" in 18 gauge. They did not have 20 gauge but suggested a metal fabrication shop. The metal fab. shop had 20 gauge. They did ductwork and other sheet metal fabrication so what I got was an off-cut.

David

 

[Jerry]

I had a fender like yours. I never did figure out how so many dents could be in one fender. I finally bought a new fender, still had the MOSS sticker on it but had been around for years in someones garage. It did not fit but it had to do with the flange being off to line up the holes. So I cut off the flange on the old fender and welded it on to the new one. Pretty good fit then.
Lots of work but worth it. Kind of like the front mouth area. Spent two weeks on that.

 

[RJCOX]

Yeah, if only it were that easy (lol).

I'll put some effort into it while I start my search/saving for a good used one, or let's say a good repairable one.

Had a shot in the neck today so I'm taking it easy and researching.

 

[RJCOX]

Well, locally, my choices are 16 and 22 in cold rolled, or 18 in stainless.

Might have to order off the internet.

 

[Jim_Stevens]

TRF seems pretty proud of their new fenders, but I don’t know if that is in your budget.

And for good reason!
I can attest that TRF’s fenders are of outstanding quality, having been in the same situation as you two months ago. The fenders are probably heavier gauge than the original and the wire-bead rolled edges still have the wire in them. Made in Denmark. If you can get them on sale, so much the better!