• Hi Guest!
    You can help ensure that British Car Forum (BCF) continues to provide a great place to engage in the British car hobby! If you find BCF a beneficial community, please consider supporting our efforts with a subscription.
    There are some perks with a member upgrade!
    **Upgrade Now**
    (PS: Subscribers don't see this gawd-aweful banner
Tips
Tips

General Tech Fuel Additives?

Share this page

CinneaghTR

CinneaghTR

Jedi Warrior
Offline
Okay, I'm getting my supplies together for fuel additives. Am I overlooking anything?

Definitely need:

Ethanol Treatment
Upper Cylinder Lubricant
Lead Substitute (that's right, no hardened valve seats)

Do I need?
Octane Booster (I don't think so, but would like to see who does use it)

Anything else?

I'll shy away from brand names, but if you have a favorite one, I'm all ears, especially if you have a cheap source by the case.

Thanks in advance! :thumbsup:
 
I don't use any of those though I carry a bottle of octane booster on road trips in case I have to fill up somewhere that only has regular or get a tankful of dubious premium.

Octane needs will depend, of course, on your engine and may require some experimenting with timing and various grades/brands to find what works.

What does ethanol treatment do?
 
I'm interested to see this thread progress. I have no hardened valve seats as well, and I use none of the above mentioned products. Perhaps I'm lucky but so far, so good. I drive my car pretty regularly however I don't tend to drive it real hard.
 
I'm interested in following this too. I've believed for years that gasoline and oil have enough additives to eliminate the need for "more", except in special cases (old gas, stuck valves, contaminated oil, etc.)

Tom
 
Ethanol issues - definitely something to chew over. I read the Lucasoil page about their ethanol treatment:

Safeguard™
• Cleans injectors, valve seats, combustion chambers and other critical fuel components

• Stabilizes fuel and prevents varnish & gum formation in ethanol and gasoline

• Combats deposits and protects your engine oil lubricants from the harmful effects of alcohol combustion

To me, doesn't look like it does anything special regarding ethanol. Seems it does what just about every other "fuel stabilizer" is advertised to do. And the issues of flexible hose deterioration, gasket deterioration, and water build up in the tank aren't mentioned.

Just my two cents.
Tom
 
If over 60,000 miles in 11 years -- with no fuel-related problems -- on an original and untouched '62 Herald engine (that already had 50,000 miles on it when I got the cat) is any indication, none of that stuff is necessary! I wouldn't even bother with that emergency bottle of octane booster; one tank of regular is not going to hurt anything. At worst, you can retard the timing a bit until you next fill up with premium!
 
I'll pour a little Marvel Mystery Oil in the oil and fuel once a year or so. Doesn't hurt and is good as upper cylinder lubricant as any. I also add it to my lawn and garden machines. No fuel stabilizers in anything.
 
I'll add my $.02 to the fray. Ethanol treatment : Save your money unless you store the car for long periods outdoors. Even then it probably won't be necessary unless you live near a swamp. But the 'treatment' won't preserve the things that ethanol attacks, like original soft fuel lines and fuel pump diaphragm. Odds are, though, that those things have been replaced anyway. The originals don't last forever.

Lead substitute: Again, save your money unless/until the engine tells you it needs it. The vast majority won't, although some do. It depends on things like how long it was run on leaded, and how hard you drive it now. Set the valves, drive a few thousand miles, check the valves. If the exhaust clearances are too tight but the intakes are OK, you might need lead substitute. My previous 3 TR motors didn't seem to need it; my current one does. (Haven't been in to see, but the previous owner claimed the engine had been rebuilt, so maybe the valve seats were freshly ground some 35 years before I started it.)

BMIHT did a test on lead substitutes some years back. Out of all those tested (7 IIRC), only two actually worked (and some were worse than useless). Millers is not available in the US, but Redline Lead Substitute is (which is what I use). Unfortunately it's not cheap, but since you only need about 1 ounce per tank of gas, it's not too expensive either. Check around, though. I found a 4-pack on Amazon for a good price, but they don't seem to have it any more.

I'm not totally convinced of the need for an upper cylinder lubricant, but since I'm adding the lead substitute anyway, I also use about 4 ounces of smokeless synthetic 2 cycle oil (TC-W3) per tank. Lots cheaper than MMO and just as good from what I've read. Doesn't give the exhaust that distinctive smell, though.
 
I don't believe in additives either.

Since I will only be drive my TR4 within the radius of a local station when it's finished, I can buy Ethanol free gas there. So ethanol is not an issue either.

After Ethanol gas came out I had a vapor lock issue with my 1933 Chevrolet until I found this gas station. The vapor lock usually happened when I need to stop at a long cycle red light.

Visit my website at: https://mysite.verizon.net/vze114b79/

Vila

1933 Chevrolet
1962 Triumph TR4
1984 BMW 633 CSi
 
My name is Jay. I'm an admitted MMO user and have been for a very long time....and I've used it in the crankcase too...and I've even been known to put it in the dashpots....and if they made a cologne...I'd probably wear it.

 
"My name is Jay. I'm an admitted MMO user and have been for a very long time"

attachment.php


After shave from MMO? I'd buy it ...

Tom
 
Nobody has mentioned adding Zinc at oil changes to prevent cam wear issues or is it only necessary to add the Zinc during the engine break in period? I just added at an oil change, a 12 oz container of a product called "hy-per lube Zinc replacement additive" which is supposed to protect better than Zinc! Anyone heard of this product or did I get sucked in and bought snake oil? Wasn't cheap at $20 for the bottle.
 
In the years I've been an automotive journalist, fuel and oil treatments have been one of the most frequently asked questions. After over a decade of talking to more restorers and mechanics than any sane person should about the topic, here are the key points:

1) The freak-out of the day is currently ethanol. Everybody goes ape over ethanol, but many states have been using ethanol in fuel for decades. When a person bought a new TR6 in Seattle in December and went to go fill it up with its first tank of gas, the car got to drink ethanol. Granted, the percentage is up (as high as 15% in some markets), but certainly not enough of a change to make people freak out. Ethanol-mixed fuel doesn't produce as much power, but it burns cleaner. It does make fuel go stale quicker, so Sta-bil is a good idea for long term storage.

2) Ethanol Treatments are nothing more than standard STP-style carb/injector cleaner additive. Unless you have clogged injectors, don't bother. Runing an inline fuel filter prior to your SUs or Strombergs does far more good than any liquid cleaner.

3) Lead substitute: Valve seat recession seems to have little to do with lead in fuel. I've spoken to plenty of mechanics who have opened up countless engines without hardened valve seats that have run unleaded fuel for decades with no recession at all. Other engines running lead have recession. It seems to have much more to do with the quality of the engine, fuel used and nature of the usage. Given the improvements in fuel additives, lead substitute is basically a waste of money. Unless you're going to put 100,000 miles on your TR, lead substitute probably will make no difference. If you're going to put high mileage on the engine, chances remain that a)something else (rings) will go first and b) the money you save from paying $3 per bottle can be used to cover the cost of hardened valve seats when you next rebuild. Think of it this way: 100,000 miles in a TR is roughly 400 fill-ups. Even if you didn't buy lead substitute and went 50,000 miles, it would pay for hardened seats.

4) Octane Booster: If your TR is stock, you don't need octane booster. Just for those who don't quite understand why we have different octane fuel: the higher the octane, the more compression the fuel can withstand before detonating. (People often mistake "high octane" for being "more explosive", when it's actually somewhat the opposite.) With high compression engines, higher octane is needed to prevent detonation prior to the spark. TRs are usually around 8.5:1 compression, which is low. For comparison sake, a '69 Z28 is 11:1 and a Boss 302 is 10.5:1. Those need higher octane (92+), but a TR can do with 87 at stock. If you are running advanced timing, you might decide to go 89 octane if you hear some pinging. Paying for Super Unleaded (91-93) is usually a total waste, since your TR cannot benefit at all from it without modification and tuning.

5) Upper cylinder lubricant: Take off your valve cover after you do some driving (and it cools down a little). Dab a paper towel against any single part there. You'll notice how oily it is. If there's one thing a Triumph engine is good at doing -- it's slinging oil everywhere. Putting Marvel in your fuel will do nothing but make your car smoke a little out the exhaust. Marvel is good for pre-war cars with sketchy low-pressure lubrication and felt pads. It's pretty worthless for a fine running TR engine.
 
ZDDP (zinc dialyldithiophosphate) was the last big freak-out of the day. Here's the skinny:

1) ZDDP is an anti wear agent. Yes, the oil companies had to lower the level of ZDDP in their products.

2) For most applications, it is totally irrelevant.

3) If you have an engine with flat tappets, like our TRs do: when you rebuild the engine, use a ZDDP additive or ZDDP-enriched break-in oil during the prescribed break-in period. As for continued running far past the break-in period (the majority of us), the improvements in oil additive technology provides better lubrication than when our TRs were new and the oil had ZDDP. In other words, you can add ZDDP, but given the amount we drive and the quality of modern oil, it's probably not going to do much. Again, this is different from the break-in period. IF our cams were more aggressive, like a L88 Corvette, ZDDP would be a good idea for every oil change, but our cams simply aren't that aggressive, and therefore cam wear isn't usually an issue.

4) Think of ZDDP like medication: using too much is actually really bad. Never add more ZDDP than the additive specs, because overdosing on ZDDP can actually increase camshaft and lifter wear. In addition, for cars that have catalytic converters (TR7/8/Spit), zinc and phosphates clog the catalytic converters, so too much ZDDP will hasten cat failure.
 
Sam - it's really helpful to read your first hand experience and thoughts on all this. Seems to back up what my dad told me 50 years ago - gasoline already has the additives most engines need. Thanks.

Tom
 
sammyb said:
3) Lead substitute: Valve seat recession seems to have little to do with lead in fuel. I've spoken to plenty of mechanics who have opened up countless engines without hardened valve seats that have run unleaded fuel for decades with no recession at all. Other engines running lead have recession. It seems to have much more to do with the quality of the engine, fuel used and nature of the usage.
Click to expand...
There can certainly be other reasons for valve seat recession.

BUT, my 56 TR3 "barn find" (stored since 1975 or so) was definitely suffering from valve recession. The exhaust valves were tight enough to affect idling after just a few thousand miles, and another check 500 miles later showed that they were once again tighter than they should have been.. Once might be a fluke, but twice is enough to convince me. Adding Redline Lead Substitute (which doesn't actually contain lead) stopped the recession dead in it's tracks, with no other changes in fuel, engine, or usage.

Octane requirement is affected by a lot more than just compression ratio. The early TR engine's combustion chamber is primitive at best, and having the intake manifold bolted to the exhaust manifold can raise intake charge temperature a LOT under some conditions (eg stop & go traffic on a hot day); both of which contribute to detonation. There is a reason that Triumph specified 95 octane fuel. (Granted, there is some offset in units, but 95 RON is still around 90 RON+MON/2).
In addition, many engines have been "modified" by installing 86 or 87mm liners (at one time, 87mm liners were a lot cheaper than 83s and for awhile the 83s weren't even available off the shelf); without corresponding changes to lower compression ratio.

Even on 89 octane, I still can occasionally hear some knock under really adverse conditions. Maybe most of you will never get stuck in a traffic jam with ambient temperatures pushing 100F+, but it's a fact of life for me.

BTW, removing the rocker cover does NOT let you access the upper cylinder, which is where upper cylinder lubricant can be beneficial. If you pull the head (to access the upper cylinder area) and find oil, there is a serious problem!

untitled-4.jpg
 
Sorry Randall, I wasn't very clear: what I meant is that some engines (based on the quality of the metallurgy) are more prone to valve seat recession than others, and in those specific engines where valve seat recession is noticed, lead substitute is a good thing. Triumph, like most European manufacturers in the 1950s-1970s seemed to have radically varying quality of metal (and paint, for that matter) within short time periods, whereas American car companies were more stable. (American car companies were either good or bad for long periods of time.) According to guys I've known who have worked extensively on TR engines, TRs don't -usually- suffer from valve seat recession with modern fuels. Of course, as they say, your results may vary.

Obvously, my previous comments were basic and for general use. No doubt that heat can change things. People often mistake 95 octane in the original specs for modern octane ratings, which it is closer to 89 and change. You are indeed absolutely correct that some rebuild and modified TR engines run better on 91+, and my own previous TR3 was less prone to pinging in the Summer on wide-open-throttle on 91 octane, but it had been skimmed and was running a little more advance. My first TR3, which I ran in Houston Summers was fine on 87.

And I'm sorry -- I basically was writing in a rush and wasn't thinking: removing the valve cover allows one to see the valve train, which many people use Marvel Mystery Oil to lubricate. Oiling the upper cylinder area with Marvel is also a carry-over from pre-war cars, which often had a glass bottle that shot a drop of Marvel into the intake. (The 1929 Franklin in my garage has a Marvel upper cylinder lubrication system from the factory.) The same rule applies -- they got rid of intake oilers for a reason: they aren't needed, due to better build tolerances on mass-market cars, better metallurgy, higher quality oils, and better fuel additives. They look cool, though, and are good for "what's that?" questions throughout any car show.
 
sammyb said:
According to guys I've known who have worked extensively on TR engines, TRs don't -usually- suffer from valve seat recession with modern fuels. Of course, as they say, your results may vary.
Click to expand...
Which is what I was saying before. Usually it's not a problem; sometimes it is. Keep an eye on the valve clearances to find out.

The same rule applies -- they got rid of intake oilers for a reason: they aren't needed, due to better build tolerances on mass-market cars, better metallurgy, higher quality oils, and better fuel additives. They look cool, though, and are good for "what's that?" questions throughout any car show.
Click to expand...

My argument against that is somewhat weaker; but I'll offer it anyway. It's been a few years back, not long after CA switched from using MTBE to ethanol. One of our local club members had his rebuilt TR4 engine start visibly burning oil after only about 5k miles and when it continued to get worse ultimately decided to have it torn down at about 15k. What they found was that the ring gaps were huge, the rings were simply worn out! The fellow who did the work is a very well regarded professional (now retired), Steve Hedke, who you may recognize as having run his TR3 "Scrappy" in the History Channel's "Great Race" a few years back and winning his class with the best overall time of any entrant. (Older cars got bonus points for age, which is the only thing that kept Steve & his wife from winning the event overall.)
Steve claimed to have seen the exact same symptom with a vintage Land Rover engine and a flathead Ford V8, at about the same time. The only common elements seem to be fresh rings in old engines, and ethanol in the fuel. Steve's theory is that raw E10 was washing away the oil film at startup, leading to that rapid wear you hear about in the snake oil commercials.

It's only a theory, of course, I wouldn't call that proof of any sort. YMMV, offer void where not prohibited, etc. But I saw Bob's beautiful TR4 go from purring sweetly to blowing huge clouds of oil smoke (didn't want to follow him too close going up a grade!). And with the same driver, same engine, same fuel, same brand of rings; the problem did not happen again after he started using about 4 oz of MMO in a tank. No visible smoke from the MMO either.

I haven't shopped for MMO, but the 2-cycle oil I use (ashless synthetic TC-W3) can be had for under $20/gallon, which pencils out to around $.03/mile. And since I'm adding lead substitute in every tank, the extra hassle of adding oil as well is minimal (I premix them into individual doses for each tankful.) Seems like cheap insurance to me, but again I encourage every one to make their own decision. I never experienced rapid ring wear with my old TR3 engine, so obviously it doesn't happen every time. (But it wasn't run on E10 right after changing the rings, either.)

BTW, I've got one of those MMO oilers in the shed, next to the Judson supercharger it came with. But in that case, it was to lubricate the blower vanes and Judson recommended using motor oil rather than MMO. Anyway, they delivered a lot more oil than the roughly 320:1 mix we're talking about (4 ounces in 10 gallons).
 
Back
Top