Verticle flow radiator to cross flow?

[VelodromeRacer]

Gang,
I am needing to get the racing bugeye to run cooler.
I have a stock verticle flow radiator and want to convert to a aluminum crossflow radiator.

Anybody have any tips to help with this?
I have a 948 engine, but wonder about hoses...size of them and issues with filling and closed vs open systems?

Thanks

 

[kcbugeye1275]

Check Classic Motorsports on a great article about cooling issues. If you want one built. Saldana racing does great work.

 

[tosoutherncars]

One of the racing bugeye guys just did this... hang on, let me find the link.

 

[PeterC]

There is no benefit by going to a crossflow. The down flows are more than up to the task. In the race Bugeye I help with, we had cooling issues with the stock radiator. So, we went with a Ron Davis aluminum stock style radiator. (www.rondavisradiators.com) Beautiful piece of artwork. It did help a little with our overheating problems. A much bigger help was replacing the water pump with one that still had some impeller blades.

But now, with proper pump and the aluminum radiator, 160 is the norm.

See you at Elkhart Lake?

Peter C

 

[VelodromeRacer]

I had some cooling issues this summer...I figure to do some changes this winter, both cooling and pedal box for the brakes.

I really wish I could get up to RA and ELVF, I have a family event that weekend. Since I am missing that, I am going to tow out to Hallett and race with CVAR October 3-5 though!

I drove RA last summer during the lunch touring at the SVRA Kohler races in my 1966 3000, but it isn't a race car! I enjoy that track, but I think the BE would need a rear gear change to drive those straights!

 

[Hap Waldrop]

Here's a picture of the Huffaker Bugeye I drove a few years ago, it had a Ron Davis cross flow radiator. Maybe this will give you a few ideas.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

Another angle.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

OK, now here's another way to skin a cat, while I get to play with alot of cool stuff that belongs to other people, on my dime I accomplish the same thing for a fraction of the cost on my own car, and some of my customer's cars. This is a crowflow VW rabbit crossflow radiator, Valeo brand, aluminum center core, plastic side tanks, weight like half what the aluminum radiator weight at 5lbs. Used a Moroso filler neck, and got the hoses at Advance auto, cost about $150 total, compared to the $600 Ron Davis set up cost.

I weld a 1-1/4 neck onto a Spriget 1" termostat housing and made a 1-1/4 to 1" reducer for the water pump. Best cooling radiator I ever used, yes even better than Ron Davis unit, very popular route with the SCCA spridget guys. I'm doing to run this same set up on my vintage car.

 

[jlaird]

Man, what nice looking engine rooms. As always I am impressed.

 

[PeterC]

I'm doing to run this same set up on my vintage car.

Vintage? They had water cooled VWs in 1972? LOL Not where we race.


Peter

 

[PeterC]

I drove RA last summer during the lunch touring at the SVRA Kohler races in my 1966 3000, but it isn't a race car! I enjoy that track, but I think the BE would need a rear gear change to drive those straights!

Bring a book. It gives you a chance to read up on the 72 GCRs LOL


It IS great place, and this event promises to be very special.


Let me know if you need help. I know some... people. ;-)

Peter

 

[Hap Waldrop]

I'm doing to run this same set up on my vintage car.

Vintage? They had water cooled VWs in 1972? LOL Not where we race.
Peter

Peter, you're right, but they didn't have Ron David radiators, roller rockers, Weber sidedraft carbs, Taylor/Webster transmissions, trick distributors (like the 1-2-3s), gear reduction starters, WC oil pans, larger valves, Tilton clutches, EGT gauges, etc., etc. For that matter, I don't think they had Peter Caldwell adjustable shocks either :wink: There's even a top running vintage Spridget running a eltromotive crank fire ignition from the Midwest, and we don't allow that down here.

As for as the race at Road America, it's one of those races where almost anything is allowed like the Mitty, SVRA's main tech guys words, not mine. Look around the paddock, I bet you'll be surprised in what you see, and how much it doesn't reflect 1972 specs. I don't know of any vintage group that disallows a alternate radiator. Most even allow tube shock conversion, how sinful is that Peter Interesting point though, how a $600 radiator can/could be legal, but a $100 radiator wouldn't be

I tell you what I'll re-think my radiator if, and when the vast number of guys in vintage re-think their bore sizes You're right though, they didn't have VW radiators in 1972, but they didn't have 1380s or 998s either :wink:

FWIW, I know of several Spridgets running the VW radiator in vintage, so I won't be making a new trail, just following a wise one.

Vintage is no where near 1972 SCCA specs, just the cosmetic illusion of 1972.

Change of subject Peter, I sent you the guy the other day looking for the late model steering rack bearing, he's a ex-G roduction racer, one of the best, he's determined to make a solution for replacing the bearing in the sterring racks, when you start looking at this closer many/most of them need a new bearing, It's just something most folks never look at.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

OK, a little follow up on that post, first off Peter, don't take anyhting I said to totally directed towards you. It's just the vintage racing mentality that sometimes sets me off. My background, the last 25 years is mostly in SCCA national production car racing, when there was nothing other than full prep in the SCCA production classes, the sky was pretty much the limit, yeah you had run a certain valve size, bore, carb size, but other than that it was pretty wild open, the really fast guys almost always never cheat, because unlike most vintage groups, we're held accountable, post race tech, and protest exist, to keep folks honest, then if you make the top three at the runoff, your engine is probably coming apart for everything to be checked. For the most part the only guys cheating the SCCA are guys who know theyt'll probably never win a heated battle, so they can, and they're getting out run, so who cares if they are cheating or not.

Now you go over to the vintage side, most groups have no post race tech, not many of them even weight the cars, there's no protest system in place. Now keep in mind I build vintage engines and normally follow the request of my customers, some want to be legal, some do not, legal is really a joke in vintage if you ask me, lots of vintage racing have illegal bore sizes, too large of valves, that's a given, Look up the valve sizes on the 1275 and 948 in the PCS, they have never changed on those two engnes, it's fair to say most are not running legal size valves. I see Datsun 5pd trannys stuffed behind Sprites. Bottom line, there no accoutablity in vintage, no rule enforcing, and most people do what the heck they want, or they can hide, but yet there's this constant talk about legality, where no enforcement exist, from a racer who has had to live by rules, and be accoutable in SCCA national racing, all this talk of cheating in vintage kinda seem ridiculous to me. Aside all that vintage is cool racing a bit laid back compared to national racing, and overall more fun, I just wish in vintage the kettle quit calling the fry pan black, because ther are not much innocentence in vintage racing

 

[jlaird]

Fight fight. LOL

Think a nerve has been touched.

Now befor you think this is a flame it is not. I know nothing of this so no dog in this at all.

 

[Hedgehog]

We solved the cooling problem for $250 on our Spridgets by taking the original radiator to a local radiator shop. He replaced the core with a high performance core that tripled the cooling surface. The hottest it got after that was 190. Plus legal in all vintage organizations.

As far as rear diffs at RA. We ran a 4.2 in the 948 Sprite and a 3.9 in the Limited Prep 1275.

If you come to RA next year give us a heads up and we'll do what we can to help/crew for you. Pete will save you some paddock space, won't you.

 

[PeterC]

Hap, I really wasn't looking for a fight, and Jack..... We aren't!

No fight here. I only have contact with the VSCDA. I help with a Bugeye labeled as MOD-1. It means it has a 1275. A 948 would not be so labeled. It is not terribly tricked out. There are certainly a few cars way over the top, and there are few very, very vintage accurate. To each his own. All fun to watch. I enjoy both ends of the spectrum. I wont go into the battles that have ensued over the years on the subject... we've all heard most of the positions.

Anyway, the original post was about cooling and what I had experienced. David's solution works as well. What I was trying to say, was that the crossflow radiator and the additional plumbing to accommodate it isn't necessary.

Remember, 2 turtles can have a race.


Peter

 

[jlaird]

It was a joke Peter/Hap. Just my strange sense of humor.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

No fight here, just talking, that's all. No harm, but when you race in the South, then you learn how to race in hot weather, I race in 108 degree air temps before, you better know how to keep a car cool down here, cockpit tmeps in closed cars can easily reach 140 degrees, guess that's why i always raced a open car. IN a spriget you better do your homework getting a oil cooler and ducting right in a Spridget, or you're going to bake some motors

The VW radiator, kicks every radiator's butt I ever used, and it's a whopping $100 for the radiator, and weights 5 pounds, it'sthe best set up bar any I ever used, and I pretty much used them all, souped up stock units, Ron Davis, custome built units and the VW. For the most part, it doesn't even need duct work, just stick it up there, and it cools like crazy. And FWIW, the PCS has had a rule in place for many decades, and yes preceeding 1972, that states a aternate radiator can be used as long as it is mounted in the same aproximate location. That what gets me about 1972 SCCA PCS specs, it'as a rule book that doesn't even exist anymore, and the vintage of today doesn't come close to resembling it.

Peter no harm, but you kinda walked into that one, not knowing it David knows me and my involvment with the rules of SCCA production race cars, I've been fighting the SCCA comp board for 25 years to create common sense rules for these cars.

The way I see it, vintage isn't broke, it has no central voice, which is kinda screwy, VMC is trying, but it works overall. Guys in vintage need to give up the legality talk though, I ain't buying it, most would not know legality if it ran over them I paln on build ing a 1275 using the same components I always used in my FP motors, and running the two HS4s, all well within the rules of almost any vintage body in the country, any I will ever run with anyway, I plan on mostly doing VDCA, which leans on the strict side. Down here HSR is the wild group, almost anything goes. Oh and don't get me started on vintage tech guys, i had a SCCA tech license for many years, where do they get these vintage tech guys from, most of them are clueless. SVRA is one of the few groups that has actually took the time to write rules, the rest of the group tend to rely on hear-say and what they think is correct. Next time you're at a vintage race, mosey up to the tech shed, if there is one and ask them to look at their 1972 SCCA GCR and PCS, and look at the dumbfounded looks you get