TR2/3/3A TR3A long nose starter restoration

[59triumphtr3a]

Hello, I peeked inside my 3A long nose starter today. On the brush end, I found a piece of paper in there. It wraps almost all the way around the inside of the yoke. I am curious as what is it for and how should it fit? It was slightly wedged behind the field coils a bit but yet not so far as to partially block the two openings through which you see the brushes. I'm sure it vibrated around from its original installation until the stuck the way I found it. It is almost the same width of the brush cover band. Also, does anybody have 'I wish I knew that before I started' tips to share on restoring one of these beasts?
Thanks,

 

[Tinkerman]

I bought a NOS starter. I did take it apart and clean it up and it did have the paper under the metal band. I have seen it under other old car starters. I really think it was used to keep moisture and other road junk out of the starter.

Hope this helps, Tinkerman

 

[Marvin Gruber]

It doesn't take much for insulation on 12 volt systems. Its nice to have the paper inside but its not necessary. A good coat of paint on the connections and fields inside will do the same trick. Biggest thing is the brushes and holders. make sure the brushes will slide in and out in the holders. IF the brushes are seated properly, there will be a black film coating around the commutator. Don't sand that off. Inspect the commutator slots. Rule of thumb is have the slot depth as deep as the slot is wide. Use an old hacksaw blade to clean out the mica slots if they are even with the copper bars. Paper was to insulate the long bolts from the field windings

Marv

 

[59triumphtr3a]

Thanks Marv, The Haynes Manual(pg 216) and Complete Official Triumph TR2-3 by Robert Bentley (pg 314) specifically mention not to remove the mica material below the commutator segments on the starter. This is opposite of what they say to do on the generator. But I wonder why the difference?

 

[martx-5]

Thanks Marv, The Haynes Manual(pg 216) and Complete Official Triumph TR2-3 by Robert Bentley (pg 314) specifically mention not to remove the mica material below the commutator segments on the starter. This is opposite of what they say to do on the generator. But I wonder why the difference?

The mica on starter armatures is not normally undercut because they are just an intermittent duty motor, whereas a generator is running all the time. Also, the brushes in a starter motor have a lot of copper in them as opposed to the hard carbon brushes in a generator. So, the starter brushes are less likely to wear down the copper segments and allow the harder mica to protrude past the copper commutator segments then the hard carbon brushes of the generator armature. In other words, the softer starter brushes won't wear down the copper segments like the hard carbon brushes will in the generator, so it's really just a waste of time to undercut starter armatures. We don't do it at work, but we do have an undercutter for the few generators that we rebuild.

 

[Don Elliott]

My 1958 TR3A came with - and still has - a long-nose bullet nose starter. It does not look at all like Dick's photo above The pinion gear is thrown out towards the rear where-as Dick's pulls forward to engage the flywheel to start the engine.

 

[TR3driver]

My 1958 TR3A came with - and still has - a long-nose bullet nose starter.

Just confusion over terms, which is why I prefer to refer to them as "early" and "late". TRs to approx TS50000 had starters like Don's photo, later cars had starters like Dick's photos. The gearbox housing and flywheel/ring gear changed as well.

 

[sp53]

Well I am not sure what type you have, but judging from Randall’s 59 numbers yours looks like Don’s. Anyways, I have rebuilt a couple of those and they have this very interesting circlip that is contained under spring tension. The clip is recessed in this cozy little grove. There must be a special compressing bench and some cool pliers to get it out, but I did not have any. I used a couple of picks and alls with magic words. Once you get that off the rest is straight forward. I am pretty sure if you ask a local shop in your area about that clip, they will tell you that it is kinda like the guy in the Kung fu series when he leaves the temple after garbing the pebbles.
Steve

 

[startech47]

If you need a paint on insulator Glyptal is the way to go.

 

[Marvin Gruber]

Its good to have more than one brain thinking on this stuff. I was thinking of a generator when I said cut the commutator slots. We did more generators than than starters. Also couldn't think of the name of the paint(Glyptal)for painting the inside of the starter. Been out of the electrical motor business for a while and trying to forget what I did know about it.

Marv

 

[59triumphtr3a]

Thanks for your replies. I've heard of Glyptal for insides of engines to aid in the oil draining off the walls. Never seen it in action though. How does Glyptal work where perhaps some other paint would not -- from an insulator perspective? Would you only paint the inside of the yoke? I don't think one would paint the actual field coils and their iron inserts would they; so as not to affect the magnetic field. Thanks again.

 

[Geo Hahn]

I have never painted in there but can see it might be a good thing. I have encountered wear on the wrapping on the field coils:

Re-wrapping those coils rendered the starter 'as new' (more or less). Had the innards been painted perhaps it would have bought me some time but sooner or later things would have shorted out.

 

[Marvin Gruber]

Glypal paint is an insulating paint used in the electrical industry, especially on large generators. I sprayed lots of it in my younger days. How the racers got the idea to use inside the engines (I've done that too) I do not know but it does work well. Put it right on the bare copper. Several coats are okay. Even brush paint if you can find it in the qt can size. Comes in red and black.

Marv

 

[Marvin Gruber]

BTW, Geo, you can paint your fields with the glyptal and let it run down in between the copper windings and it will insulate them. It will buy you time on a rewind. Its hard to get to much paint on them, just let it dry before next coat.


Marv

 

[Geo Hahn]

Thanks. I good for now but we all know there will be a 'next time'.

 

[59triumphtr3a]

Hello, it was on this forum that I believe someone posted a picture of a tool they made to compress the starter drive spring on a long nose (M419G) starter. I searched and searched but cannot find that post or picture. Does anyone have pictures of such a tool?
Thanks,

 

[CJD]

Just a quick note about the paper...it insulates the field winding soldered connections from the long bolts that hold the starter together. Thats why it has those funny little "bumps" to clear the long bolts. If you leave it out, just make sure to insulate the soldered connections some other way...

I know it looks like trash that got thrown in, but it is a (very) low-tech solution to an important function.

John