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Spitfire spitfire transmission and j type O/D oil question
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Merlin63Tr4
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Re: spitfire transmission and j type O/D oil quest
I'm using RedLine MT-90 in a Tr4 with A type OD. I used to use GL4 85W-90, but the MT-90 gives much better shifting and it doesn't drag the engine down when the transmission is cold like the 85W-90 does. Go to the RedLine website and take a look for yourself. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/driving.gif
https://www.redlineoil.com/
I'm using RedLine MT-90 in a Tr4 with A type OD. I used to use GL4 85W-90, but the MT-90 gives much better shifting and it doesn't drag the engine down when the transmission is cold like the 85W-90 does. Go to the RedLine website and take a look for yourself. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/driving.gif
https://www.redlineoil.com/
myspitfire
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Re: spitfire transmission and j type O/D oil quest
Theirs been a quandry over this very question for some time over at the Nass(NorthAmericanSpitfireSquadron)Site.After EVERYTHING is said & done they all(being Spitfire OD owners)say use 30W non-detergent motor oil.The non detergent feature is said to stop the possibility of foaming & also being an intermediate viscosity won't aggravate internal pressures on the gearing inside,on my J-Type it does make the shift in&out seem more positive,so it works for me.But DON'T use Synthetics it makes ALL the internal TOO slippery.,And excentuates slipping out of gear.,especially in hot weather conditions.BTDT.
Ken&WhiteLightning
Theirs been a quandry over this very question for some time over at the Nass(NorthAmericanSpitfireSquadron)Site.After EVERYTHING is said & done they all(being Spitfire OD owners)say use 30W non-detergent motor oil.The non detergent feature is said to stop the possibility of foaming & also being an intermediate viscosity won't aggravate internal pressures on the gearing inside,on my J-Type it does make the shift in&out seem more positive,so it works for me.But DON'T use Synthetics it makes ALL the internal TOO slippery.,And excentuates slipping out of gear.,especially in hot weather conditions.BTDT.
Ken&WhiteLightning
Brosky
Great Pumpkin
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Re: spitfire transmission and j type O/D oil quest
This will tell you the hows and whys from a known expert on the subject.
https://www.quantumechanics.com/categories.php?op=newindex&catid=11
This will tell you the hows and whys from a known expert on the subject.
https://www.quantumechanics.com/categories.php?op=newindex&catid=11
R
RonMacPherson
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Re: spitfire transmission and j type O/D oil quest
Paul beat me to it.
Go with Quantum Mechanics advice. I agree based on my experiences with a J Laycock, upgrading the pump, and rebuilding it, etc..
Paul beat me to it.
Go with Quantum Mechanics advice. I agree based on my experiences with a J Laycock, upgrading the pump, and rebuilding it, etc..
V
vagt6
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Re: spitfire transmission and j type O/D oil quest
I hadn't seen this article by Esposito, that's all we need to know about gearbox oil.
Another thing about the 30 weight N-D oil: it's cheap! I use "Wolf's Head" brand, can't remember the price per quart, but it's far less than fancy, synthetic oils.
No matter what brand you use, check the gearbox oil often. It's very, very important to keep the oil level topped-up. Low OD gearbox oil levels cause a wide array of problems, don't let it happen.
I hadn't seen this article by Esposito, that's all we need to know about gearbox oil.
Another thing about the 30 weight N-D oil: it's cheap! I use "Wolf's Head" brand, can't remember the price per quart, but it's far less than fancy, synthetic oils.
No matter what brand you use, check the gearbox oil often. It's very, very important to keep the oil level topped-up. Low OD gearbox oil levels cause a wide array of problems, don't let it happen.
IanF
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Re: spitfire transmission and j type O/D oil quest
Well... considering no Triumph has been in the US since 1980, they are ALL classics... ...although I can still go to my local dealer and pick up parts for a '73 1800ES... /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif
YankeeTR said:
Well... considering no Triumph has been in the US since 1980, they are ALL classics... ...although I can still go to my local dealer and pick up parts for a '73 1800ES... /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif
TR3driver
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Re: spitfire transmission and j type O/D oil quest
However, the EP additives do have a bad effect on other items, notably the various brass components (synchro rings & thrust washers); which is why several west coast experts recommend Valvoline 20W50 racing oil. It's a low detergent formula, with a high level of ZDDP, which functions somewhat as an EP additive without producing the sulfuric acid that attacks the yellow metal. And the multi-weight characteristic means that it holds it's viscosity better under the extreme conditions we see here near the Mojave desert. At 100C, 20W50 is already thicker than 90 weight gear oil, and it continues to thin less at higher temperatures (as well as standing up to the heat better). The relative lack of viscosity when cold also gives smoother, easier shifts on cold mornings (where 90 weight feels like you are stirring molasses).
Ken Gillanders of British Frame and Engine has done extensive testing with the 20W50 in his own ex-racing TR2; and Herman van den Akker recommends it for every box he rebuilds.
Personally, I feel the full synthetic provides even better protection; so I will be using Redline MT-90 (which is designed to offer the proper amount of friction for synchro rings; and GL-4 protection without sulfur-based additives) in the Stag J-type I'm currently assembling.
Both it and the Stag gearbox I'm using as a donor appear to be victims of lubrication failure, so I have no trouble at all with spending an extra $10 to protect a $350 mainshaft.
I guess we always have to do things different on the west coast. Probably not a problem with a Spit, but on the 'big' Triumphs, the countershaft and thrust washers in the main gearbox are common failure items. 30 weight ND just doesn't provide the high pressure protection needed to protect these items; which is why Triumph changed their gearbox lube recommendation to GL-4 extreme pressure gear oil.RonMacPherson said:
However, the EP additives do have a bad effect on other items, notably the various brass components (synchro rings & thrust washers); which is why several west coast experts recommend Valvoline 20W50 racing oil. It's a low detergent formula, with a high level of ZDDP, which functions somewhat as an EP additive without producing the sulfuric acid that attacks the yellow metal. And the multi-weight characteristic means that it holds it's viscosity better under the extreme conditions we see here near the Mojave desert. At 100C, 20W50 is already thicker than 90 weight gear oil, and it continues to thin less at higher temperatures (as well as standing up to the heat better). The relative lack of viscosity when cold also gives smoother, easier shifts on cold mornings (where 90 weight feels like you are stirring molasses).
Ken Gillanders of British Frame and Engine has done extensive testing with the 20W50 in his own ex-racing TR2; and Herman van den Akker recommends it for every box he rebuilds.
Personally, I feel the full synthetic provides even better protection; so I will be using Redline MT-90 (which is designed to offer the proper amount of friction for synchro rings; and GL-4 protection without sulfur-based additives) in the Stag J-type I'm currently assembling.
Both it and the Stag gearbox I'm using as a donor appear to be victims of lubrication failure, so I have no trouble at all with spending an extra $10 to protect a $350 mainshaft.
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Re: spitfire transmission and j type O/D oil quest
And, since the API spec does not actually specify how much additive is allowed, GL-5 gear oil may actually meet the GL-4 specification. For awhile, some GL-5 oils said they also met the GL-4 specification; but the makers later dropped the GL-4 designation. (Probably because the testing costs money, and it wasn't getting them any more customers.)
Conventional GL-4 has the same additive as GL-5 (that corrodes yellow metal); it just has less of it. It's that additive that gives old gear oil that distinctive smell.Bugeye58 said:
And, since the API spec does not actually specify how much additive is allowed, GL-5 gear oil may actually meet the GL-4 specification. For awhile, some GL-5 oils said they also met the GL-4 specification; but the makers later dropped the GL-4 designation. (Probably because the testing costs money, and it wasn't getting them any more customers.)
Re: spitfire transmission and j type O/D oil quest
That distinctive smell is the sulfur. Unfortunately this information is also about 10 years out of date.
GL-5 has a slightly higher concentration of sulfur in it. In early oils, the sulfur was just that, plain sulfur. In MODERN / Good quality oils, the sulfur is part of a compound. What happened in the early GL-5 lubes is that as they absorbed moisture, under heat, the sulfur would form H2S04 - Sulfuric acid - that is what damages the yellow bits. This also happened with GL-4 oil however, since there was a lower concentration of sulfur, the eventual concentration of H2SO4 remained lower and they did LESS damage to the yellow metal bits.
MODERN / Good quality oils are a different story. There is Sulfur, but it is already part of a compound, and is NOT free (chemically) to combine with moisture in the oil -> therefore, no sulfuric acid.
There is also (usually) a difference between GL4 and GL5 in the "slipperinesses" GL-5 is more slippery. This is VERY good in the differential. In the transmission, it is not so good since it affects (negatively) the effectiveness of the syncro operation. Specifically designed Manual transmission fluids overcome this problems.
The problem mentioned by several posters with using synthetic gear oils is NOT the oil itself. It is will the additive pack, which doesn't provide enough "grab" for the syncros.
Using 30w oil in the trans also has its own problem mostly in that it will increase the wear on the gear set since it is NOT designed for that pressure / usage.
However for the syncro, the best bet probably would be the Red Line MTL which is a 70W80 fluid
Note that the viscosity #s are NOT the same for gear oil and motor oil an 80 gear oil has a very similar viscosity to a 30 motor oil.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html
Now as for the DIFFERENTIAL use a good quality GL-5 since it is slipperier which will reduce wear on the expensive bits (the gear!)
Finally, a large part of the reason that the old oils ate up the yellow metal is that people just don't bother changing the gear oil! if they had done so, even the older formulations would never have formed sulfuric acid and there would not have been any damaged gearboxes! even with modern oils, changing the oil is a good thing. Oil is MUCH cheaper than a rebuild.
TR3driver said:
That distinctive smell is the sulfur. Unfortunately this information is also about 10 years out of date.
GL-5 has a slightly higher concentration of sulfur in it. In early oils, the sulfur was just that, plain sulfur. In MODERN / Good quality oils, the sulfur is part of a compound. What happened in the early GL-5 lubes is that as they absorbed moisture, under heat, the sulfur would form H2S04 - Sulfuric acid - that is what damages the yellow bits. This also happened with GL-4 oil however, since there was a lower concentration of sulfur, the eventual concentration of H2SO4 remained lower and they did LESS damage to the yellow metal bits.
MODERN / Good quality oils are a different story. There is Sulfur, but it is already part of a compound, and is NOT free (chemically) to combine with moisture in the oil -> therefore, no sulfuric acid.
There is also (usually) a difference between GL4 and GL5 in the "slipperinesses" GL-5 is more slippery. This is VERY good in the differential. In the transmission, it is not so good since it affects (negatively) the effectiveness of the syncro operation. Specifically designed Manual transmission fluids overcome this problems.
The problem mentioned by several posters with using synthetic gear oils is NOT the oil itself. It is will the additive pack, which doesn't provide enough "grab" for the syncros.
Using 30w oil in the trans also has its own problem mostly in that it will increase the wear on the gear set since it is NOT designed for that pressure / usage.
However for the syncro, the best bet probably would be the Red Line MTL which is a 70W80 fluid
Note that the viscosity #s are NOT the same for gear oil and motor oil an 80 gear oil has a very similar viscosity to a 30 motor oil.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html
Now as for the DIFFERENTIAL use a good quality GL-5 since it is slipperier which will reduce wear on the expensive bits (the gear!)
Finally, a large part of the reason that the old oils ate up the yellow metal is that people just don't bother changing the gear oil! if they had done so, even the older formulations would never have formed sulfuric acid and there would not have been any damaged gearboxes! even with modern oils, changing the oil is a good thing. Oil is MUCH cheaper than a rebuild.
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Re: spitfire transmission and j type O/D oil quest
IMO, synthetic GL-5 is a better choice.
The diff on my TR3A was well-worn when I got the car in 1984, and I've racked up close to 200,000 miles since then. I never 'baby' the car, and have been known to chirp the wide, sticky tires in 2nd gear. I credit the synthetic GL-5 for making the diff live through all that (ab)use. I do change the oil regularly (tho not as often as the book calls for), but otherwise I've never so much as changed a seal in all that time.
True, except that the compound does break down (wear out) under extreme pressure and heat, and does free up sulfur. The newer compounds are more stable than the old ones were (was never just elemental sulfur dumped in the oil), but they still break down (and stink).70herald said:
/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/iagree.gif70herald said:
Thin oil may cause the OD to not develop enough pressure (no seals on the pump piston), which is why most folks recommend MT-90 rather than MTL if you have OD.70herald said:
The big Triumph differentials still contain brass thrust washers, which may be attacked by the sulfur compounds in conventional GL-5.70herald said:
IMO, synthetic GL-5 is a better choice.
The diff on my TR3A was well-worn when I got the car in 1984, and I've racked up close to 200,000 miles since then. I never 'baby' the car, and have been known to chirp the wide, sticky tires in 2nd gear. I credit the synthetic GL-5 for making the diff live through all that (ab)use. I do change the oil regularly (tho not as often as the book calls for), but otherwise I've never so much as changed a seal in all that time.
V
vagt6
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Re: spitfire transmission and j type O/D oil quest
Quantumechanics, as noted above, suggests use of 30-weight, non-detergent motor oil in Laycock gearboxes. They are Laycock De Normanville OD gearbox experts, having overhauled and sold thousands of these gearboxes to clients all over the planet (myself included).
A key point in this argument is the fact that Quantumechanics will void the one year warranty on their reconditioned JType gearboxes for failure to use <u>30 weight, non-detergent oil</u>. This has evolved after literally hundred of hours of testing on many, many gearboxes under a wide range of conditions. I will include that racing and extreme weather conditions may require different lubricants. But for 98%-plus of us, 30 weight N-D is correct.
Of course, each to his own. But I'm going with the recommendation of professionals at Quantumechanics: 30 weight, non-detergent motor oil. Change it at regular intervals, perform routine maintenance on the box, and shift it correctly.
It may be prudent for others to follow this advice as well.
Good thread, thanks for the input, everyone.
Quantumechanics, as noted above, suggests use of 30-weight, non-detergent motor oil in Laycock gearboxes. They are Laycock De Normanville OD gearbox experts, having overhauled and sold thousands of these gearboxes to clients all over the planet (myself included).
A key point in this argument is the fact that Quantumechanics will void the one year warranty on their reconditioned JType gearboxes for failure to use <u>30 weight, non-detergent oil</u>. This has evolved after literally hundred of hours of testing on many, many gearboxes under a wide range of conditions. I will include that racing and extreme weather conditions may require different lubricants. But for 98%-plus of us, 30 weight N-D is correct.
Of course, each to his own. But I'm going with the recommendation of professionals at Quantumechanics: 30 weight, non-detergent motor oil. Change it at regular intervals, perform routine maintenance on the box, and shift it correctly.
It may be prudent for others to follow this advice as well.
Good thread, thanks for the input, everyone.
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Re: spitfire transmission and j type O/D oil quest
I agree, if you paid someone to rebuild yours, and that someone has a specific recommendation for lubricant, you'd best stick with that lubricant as long as there might be a question of warranty work. That's exactly the reason I've been running Valvoline 20W50 Racing in my rebuilt A- and J- types. Herman van den Akker rebuilt them, and that's what he recommends.
Then too, for a Spit or MGB (which I bet account for the majority of J-types that John has done), the gearbox probably doesn't need an EP oil. Honestly, for just a year of the way most people drive their Triumphs, cooking oil would probably work !
But since I have no desire to rebuild this Stag gearbox again, I am going to give it all the protection I know how. And ND 30 weight don't cut it. After a short break-in/test period with racing oil, in goes the MT-90.
Then I'm going to go find that Grand Am I was racing with (and winning) when it broke /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif
Just curious, Mark, do you think John has tested more gearboxes for more hours than Triumph did ?vagt6 said:
I agree, if you paid someone to rebuild yours, and that someone has a specific recommendation for lubricant, you'd best stick with that lubricant as long as there might be a question of warranty work. That's exactly the reason I've been running Valvoline 20W50 Racing in my rebuilt A- and J- types. Herman van den Akker rebuilt them, and that's what he recommends.
Then too, for a Spit or MGB (which I bet account for the majority of J-types that John has done), the gearbox probably doesn't need an EP oil. Honestly, for just a year of the way most people drive their Triumphs, cooking oil would probably work !
But since I have no desire to rebuild this Stag gearbox again, I am going to give it all the protection I know how. And ND 30 weight don't cut it. After a short break-in/test period with racing oil, in goes the MT-90.
Then I'm going to go find that Grand Am I was racing with (and winning) when it broke /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif