TR2/3/3A ignition timing could be set with a test light

[sp53]

I saw a way in which ignition timing could be set with a test light. I have never tried it, but thought giving the process a try might help with a cold start. I have the engine set at TDC compression stroke in the photo. If I remember correctly, I need to hook a test light across the points then move the base of the distributor until the light comes on and this will make the spark accrue at the correct moment.

I am not sure if this procedure is any different than using timing light, but I am having trouble starting this engine cold and thought it might help.

It looks like it would change the position of the vacuum advance line, so something should be different. Any thought are totally welcome

Steve

 

[CJD]

That's the way I always set 2-stroke timing. I also use that method for initial timing on the TR2/3...and then I adjust after driving. Now that I think about it, I don't think I have ever used a strobe on the TR2?!?

The problem with the TR's is the advance is designed around being able to hand crank the engine. So timing goes to baseline (3 degrees) when the engine is stopped. Then, it jumps quickly for the first few hundred RPM. It also makes it very important to adjust the idle to the book RPM, as any extra will affect your timing, throwing off you idle consistency.

Normal cars have some greater advance locked in at stop and idle...and then the mechanical advance does not begin until 1500rpm or so, so that setting idle too high will not affect timing.

 

[sp53]

Thanks John for your input. I use a timing light kinda, but the window to get the timing light on the marks is small. To see marks at all---- is maybe on the passenger side and still cumbersome, just no room. I usually put everything at TDC to start with and then set the timing by performance and ear.

I am frustrated with this car’s cold starting. I have to use starter fluid for starting; something is not correct. I thought maybe I am missing something about how the timing is set on these cars. I remembered one of the Triumph books mentioned setting the ignition timing this way and thought I would try it

To hook up this method I put the test light across the 2 arms of the points somehow then move the distributor until the points close? Still not sure about where and how the light should be hooked up.

You posted how the timing started 4 degrees and then jumped up quickly, and the idle needs to be about 600. I cannot get this engine to start cold or idle nice. I thought maybe the base line for timing this way would be more accurate.

I was hoping if I set the timing this way maybe I might get an improvement.

steve

 

[charleyf]

The way that I help myself in this process is to make a white mark at 4 degrees BTDC on the pulley on the crankshaft. That is when you are standing in front of the car on the right side of the TDC mark and is .1936" or about 3/16". You set the crankshaft pulley at that mark and then proceed to hook up your light.
Charley

 

[mezy]

got this static timing a bit bass acwards,
the spark happens when the poins open not when they close
put the crank on the timing mark not TDC, then turn the dizzy in the opposite direction the rotor arm turns
until the light goes out,
this is the point where the spark occurs which will be quite a few degrees different to when the light comes on.

 

[CJD]

For the static light, first, place the crank mark at 3/8" before #1 TDC on the pulley marks. Preferably, turn the engine clockwise to get there, so the chain tension is taken up in the right direction. Set up your light. Then, set the timing by turning the Distributor to set the timing. Lock the distributor when the light just goes out.

So...set the engine position, then use the distributor to set the timing. You never have to mess with the timing marks on the crank after you set them to 3/8" BTDC

 

[sp53]

I am probably off on the timing because I kinda blinked the light on and off, and then locked down the distributor. I would have done it with the light out but was out in the garage and forgot which way -on or off- but the difference look very small. I also set the crank- mark standing in front of the car 3/16 to the right. I just kind felt the 3/16.

Well, I tried starting the car, but no pop from the engine, so I went with starting fluid. The car started right up and sounded just ok. I advanced the timing maybe 2 lines with the clicker to smooth the engine out; it did not smooth out much if any. I let it run, and push the choke in as the car warmed up. I lifted the pins on the carbs and both carbs wanted die, so I actually turned both jets 4 flats before the engine would not die so quick and maybe caught itself before it died. I think last summer, I keep leaning them one flat until the carbon was less.

The good news is I think I made a difference, but too early to tell. I got the idle to come down to solid 900 and the engine to smooth out. The cold start problem could still be there, I will wait until the morning to see if the engine pops when I crank it. For me, the cold start stuff is mystifying when there is no ignition trying to catch, it just spins and spins.

Thanks a lot everyone

 

[CJD]

These little cars are like tanks, once you get them set up. I realized I finished my TR2 7-1/2 years ago. I store it with no trickle charger or anything. If it's been more than a month since I have run it, I pump up the carbs before cranking. If it has been less time, I don't even do that. It always fires right up and runs like stink!

I change all the fluids once a year, when I also take the time to clean the distributor cap and run a file over the points. I had to replace the leaky jet seals in the carbs at about 5 years, at which time I synched the idles and fine tuned the mixtures. I have not messed with the timing in 7 years. It idles all day at 700rpm and never fails to start right up! To answer one of Karls questions, I always do the initial start with full choke, which brings the idle up to about 2000 until I bring the choke down to get the idle to about 1000 rpm while it warms up.

 

[karls59tr]

These little cars are like tanks, once you get them set up. I realized I finished my TR2 7-1/2 years ago. I store it with no trickle charger or anything. If it's been more than a month since I have run it, I pump up the carbs before cranking. If it has been less time, I don't even do that. It always fires right up and runs like stink!

I change all the fluids once a year, when I also take the time to clean the distributor cap and run a file over the points. I had to replace the leaky jet seals in the carbs at about 5 years, at which time I synched the idles and fine tuned the mixtures. I have not messed with the timing in 7 years. It idles all day at 700rpm and never fails to start right up! To answer one of Karls questions, I always do the initial start with full choke, which brings the idle up to about 2000 until I bring the choke down to get the idle to about 1000 rpm while it warms up

 

[karls59tr]

SP3 says he set the crank mark 3/16 to the right when standing in front of the engine. Should the 3/16 mark not be " to the left" if you are standing in front of the engine because you want BTDC? In addition is not 3/8 the ideal setting not 3/16?

 

[charleyf]

SP3 says he set the crank mark 3/16 to the right when standing in front of the engine. Should the 3/16 mark not be " to the left" if you are standing in front of the engine because you want BTDC? In addition is not 3/8 the ideal setting not 3/16?

If you have a spare crank pulley and measure it. Then determine the circumference ( pi X diameter)then divide that by 360( degrees) and finally multiply that by the degrees you want. According to the manual the starting point is 4 degrees. For ease of use I then changed that from a decimal figure to a 16th. It came closest to 3/16". Now if you want something different like 8 degrees you make your mark at 3/8".

Your second question about the right or left side of the TDC mark to put your timing mark. Take a look at the fan on your car by pushing the solenoid ( car in neutral and key off) . You will see that the fan blades move from left to right. If you are standing in front of the car looking over the radiator and engine. As does the pulley. So to get Before Top Dead Center the mark needs to be on the right side of the TDC mark (hole in the rear half of the pulley).
Charley

 

[karls59tr]

Thanks Charley I once read in Kastner's competition manual that the TR3 seems to run better at 8 degrees so that's what I use not that I race it or anything. The 3/8"mark should be on the "Left side of the TDC if you are standing in front of the car I believe. I

 

[poolboy]

Sluggish.

 

[sp53]

My cold start test failed yesterday. I then pulled the plugs out and they had a lot of carbon. Next, I put in some clean plugs and tried to start the car. The engine did not catch or pop at all, so I put in a very small spray of starter fluid and it fired right up. When the engine warmed up, I drove the car some; after the drive the engine idled at 800 and sounded good with good performance. Also, I did open the flats 1 turn on one and 2 turns on another.

The timing seems correct. My thoughts now are there in not enough fuel coming into the engine to start the car cold. Perhaps the choke is not pulling out far enough? I am wondering now if I had set the fuel so lean the choke pull was not letting enough fuel. That could be the case, right? At least I am visualizing it that way. I could try and get some more choke on the pull. That is about all I can think the cold start problem could be. This morning I going out and try another cold start and see. Does anyone have any suggestions?

steve

 

[charleyf]

I agree that a very lean carb makes the engine run great. It also makes the car not want to start . However you rarely get a black sooty plug with a lean setting.
My suggestion is to first look at the bottom of the jet prior to pulling the choke. Is it all of the way up aganst the carb body/nut? Now pull the choke and see where that jet is located. Is it 1/8 to 1/4" down? Also have you checked the upper screw on the choke mechanism? The one that increases the throttle a little bit. Do you press on the accelerator pedal a slight bit when trying to start the engine? Also on the H6 carbs is the choke linkage that goes between the two carbs and is located below the carbs. This should have an adjustment. It allows both carbs to get the same settings if properly adjusted.
When properly adjusted you should not need to press on the accelerator. But the best thing to do is to try different things when what you are doing is not working. Just try them one at a time so you know what is or is not helping.
Charley

 

[CJD]

Steve, how old is your gas in the tank?

Karl, they are correct...I calculated 3/8", but it seems 3/16" is closer to the correct 3 degrees by the manual. I still have been setting 3/8" with no problems, and have actually advanced the spark since then after the road test.

When looking at the pulley at 3 degrees BDC, the hole in the pulley will be to the left of the indicator on the block, if you are looking over the apron. If you are looking over the left wing, the pulley hole will be above the indicator on the block.

 

[karls59tr]

Steve, how old is your gas in the tank?

Karl, they are correct...I calculated 3/8", but it seems 3/16" is closer to the correct 3 degrees by the manual. I still have been setting 3/8" with no problems, and have actually advanced the spark since then after the road test.

When looking at the pulley at 3 degrees BDC, the hole in the pulley will be to the left of the indicator on the block, if you are looking over the apron. If you are looking over the left wing, the pulley hole will be above the indicator on the block.

Thanks for clearing that up John. Like Charley mentioned 3/8 is more like 8 degrees and I read once in Kastner's Competition Manual that he believed the car performed better at 8 degrees but maybe that is just a racing thing. In any event my car pulls strong with the 3/8s so i'll just leave it there.

 

[sp53]

The gas is probably a year old. I did not drive the car last summer at all, and not sure when I drove it last but a year would be a safe bet.
I tried a cold start yesterday and the engine just spins. I did not use any starter fluid because I wanted to try something different. All I could think of was opening the flats more, so I opened 3 flats and tried to start it. The engine just spun nicely, but with no hint of an ignition spark or pop. A small fuel leak developed at the jet, so there is fuel that close. I turned the jet back up those 3 flats and stopped the leak then I walked away until I had an idea what next to try without using starter fluid.

Old fuel is something to think about. The car has 3/8 of a tank of fuel. I wonder if I should try some bottled gas like is suggested for lawnmowers. The truth is my lawnmower will not start if sitting all winter with pump gas in it for storage, but with the bottled gas it starts right.
I could start the car with starter fluid and drive and fill it or perhaps get some of the 93 octane canned gas and put a couple of cans in the tank. I do not know if mixing the canned gas in would effect anything.

Heck I am ready to drain the tank of old gas and put the canned gas in and see what happens

I have the other tr3 that I drive, and it sits for maybe a month now and then and it starts right up. However, I drive that car a lot more. It is just crazy, one starting and the other not. The more I think about it, the more I like doing something with the fuel.

Perhaps I should start the car with starter fluid and add some canned gas. Then Drive it more to run that down, and add some 93 octane as I go.

thanks everyone steve

 

[Stevenry]

When replacing a cam shaft, I lost TDC when my degree wheel spun. When I relocated TDC with the old oil in the cylinder and clear plastic tube trick, I discovered that the hole in my pulley was 4 degrees off. It’s probably a long shot, but if nothing else seems to work, you might try to confirm that the hole and marks on the pulley are accurate, though I wouldn’t think 4 degrees would keep you from getting it started. Maybe some other pulleys from hither and yon are further off.

Steve

 

[charleyf]

When replacing a cam shaft, I lost TDC when my degree wheel spun. When I relocated TDC with the old oil in the cylinder and clear plastic tube trick, I discovered that the hole in my pulley was 4 degrees off. It’s probably a long shot, but if nothing else seems to work, you might try to confirm that the hole and marks on the pulley are accurate, though I wouldn’t think 4 degrees would keep you from getting it started. Maybe some other pulleys from hither and yon are further off.

Steve

Good thing that you determined what your problem was. BUT from what I know , which I admit is not extensive. I suspect that your actual problem is your timing chain is on the wrong tooth.
Charley