Help me out with my dilemma

[Guest]

So I'm having a bunch of work done on my car - I'm adding a pile of go fast pieces. Here's my dilemma:

The work I'm talking about can be split into three main areas -
1. Engine rebuild.
2. Fuel injection and EMS.
3. Supercharger.

It's at #1 right now, and I'm having the pieces for #2 fabricated. The supercharger setup won't be ready until Late April/Early May (so lets say late May to be on the safe side).

When it comes back from the engine place around mid March, I'll have a base engine dyno reading so I know what I'm starting from. I can then get it chassis dyno'd so I know what drivetrain losses are.

Option 1
I could install #2 at that point (or rather send it off to the EMS specialist who has a chassis dyno to do the installation and tuning).

Advantage: I'll have more dyno readings that tell me what improvements (if any) I get from going to sequential EFI and an EMS. EMS guy is free (time not cost) to do the work. I can drive a fuel injected TR6 for a couple of months, which is pretty cool in itself.
Disadvantage: It has to go back to be retuned when the supercharger is ready, which costs $ and time (dynos are not free!). I have to get the car to him, which is a pita as he's an hour or so away.

Option 2
I can wait until the supercharger setup is ready and have the whole thing installed in one fell swoop. Probably not until early June, but then I'm at the mercy of the EMS guy and the work he has in hand (race season starts when again in the NE?).

Advantage: One trip to the EMS guy, so quite a lot cheaper.
Disadvantage: I'll have no clue as to the gain from EFI. Driving on carbs until June, no guarantee that the s/c setup will be ready in May - but it's likely that will be the case. If there is a problem, two subsystems to troubleshoot (more time, more $).

So given these options would you go route 1 or route 2?
I'm sort of leaning towards #1, mainly because I'm curious about the dyno numbers and I'd like the enhanced drivability from EFI for the couple of months that I wait for #3, but I'm interested in opinions.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[Dave Russell]

"#2 Disadvantage: I'll have no clue as to the gain from EFI. Driving on carbs until June, no guarantee that the s/c setup will be ready in May - but it's likely that will be the case. If there is a problem, two subsystems to troubleshoot (more time, more $)."


As you say, it's a lot easier to debug new or unknown combinations in separate stages. Takes more time but less fumbling around. Get the first stage perfected first. What you learn in the first stage can have a lot of bearing on what you do next.
D

 

[Guest]

Yeah, I just re-read this. The way I wrote it, it does seem like a bit of a no-brainer. I think Option 1 is the way to go here, despite the extra cost.

Funny what a few days reflection will do...

 

[trfourtune]

if you are definitely going to go with the supercharger in a year then you should consider stronger rods and gas nitriding the crankshaft. you would be considering two different cams for an engine with supercharger and one without. exhaust system will help both but properly sized and tuned headers will have a big influence on the non supercharged engine. head work always helps. consider your plan for the properly matched components.
have fun
rob

 

[Guest]

Rob - I already have all that stuff in hand.

It's getting +020 Wiseco pistons, Carillo rods, ARP bolts, stainless valves with manganese guides and teflon seals, 1.55:1 roller rockers, nitrided crank, cam bearings, valve work, gas flow porting, new s/c camshaft (I'll use that with the EFI for a couple of mths - the s/c should be ready by mid-May).

I've added an Al flywheel, uprated damper (I need to get it notched for the crank trigger), 5-speed, R200 diff, strengthened the diff mounts, replaced the suspension with uprated bushings, springs and shocks, uprated the brakes and it has Moss headers on it. I went back to a stock exhaust for noise reasons, but reserve the right to change it out if it doesn't work out.

The other thread I have running is because I'm having new hubs and halfshafts made.

All this is why it's in the shop for so long - so it doesn't grenade when I turn the key or press the loud pedal!

Just as an fyi: I've been told by a number of people now who build these things for a living that as long as I stay within the stock crank rev range (below 6k, never ever over 6200), then the stock rods are ok. I went with the Carillos because I wanted to make sure there was no way that they could EVER fail, no matter what I did. They are a lot more expensive than the X type (see the PRI website for an example of these), but I feel that the H construction provides better protection against torsional stresses.

The only two things actually that I really had to think hard about was cryo treating, nitriding or a billet crank. The exchange rate precluded a billet crank, and I'm unconvinced about cryo treating, so it's flux and nitride.

Thanks for the concern though.
Alan

 

[LastDeadLast]

Alan.... can I .....touch your engine?

 

[beez]

Wow Alan that's some heavy duty stuff! If it's not to rude to ask and you don't mind answering, how much is all that running you? I plan to eventually have my engine rebuilt and when I do I would like to have it done right.

thanks!

Adam

 

[Guest]

Shannon, I want to touch my engine. It's been in the shop since just after thanksgiving, and I'm still waiting for pistons (custom order)...

The car is in CT about an hour away. I keep having to find excuses to go see her.

 

[Guest]

beez.

It's a lot.

It's completely economically unviable to do this. For the sort of money that's going into this thing you could get a 2nd hand Elise (that's including the original cost of the car - which in my case was 10k).

As an fyi, you can get a good stock rebuild with a 12 mo warranty in my area for about 4k.

I'll give you a few of the latest high points (because I just paid for them).

Rods - 1600
Pistons - 1100
HVDA - 2500 (1500 + 1000 for a rebuilt box)
R200 Diff - about 1200 because I bought a propshaft that I don't now need (was going to do o/d but it won't handle the power).
Boxing it in - not sure until I get the final bill, but it's a LOT of work. I've seen what he's done to it...
New Intake manifold - 1600 (I think - he's still building it, so I'm only out half right now), and I've been quoted 3500 for installing the ECU (Its an SM4), including dyno time and building the wiring harness for it.

I don't even want to think about the cost of the ancillaries, but then I figure pay up front or pay later. Even stupid little things like the 16" fan or the oil cooler add up when you are getting them all at once.

Basically what I'm trying to say is don't do it. Get a good rebuild. You can then strap on a supercharger for a few more k if you want more power. I've just lost it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazyeyes.gif

 

[Guest]

and for heavens sake don't let my wife see this thread!!!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif

 

[Bugeye58]

Alan, no matter what you do, there is one rule you must never, ever, violate.
Do NOT, under any circumstances, ever go back and look at the receipts.
I've been in too many of these situations, and have hopefully learned from the experience.
I love spending it, but hate thinking about it afterward. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cryin.gif
Jeff

 

[swift6]

[ QUOTE ]
Alan, no matter what you do, there is one rule you must never, ever, violate.
Do NOT, under any circumstances, ever go back and look at the receipts.


[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/iagree.gif I get asked a lot how much I have spent on the car over 16 years of ownership. Especially on the rebuild, engine and paint. My answer is always the same. I don't want to know. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thirsty.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[Guest]

Jeff - If the car performs to spec (it's been designed to give 250-275 at the crank - and believe it or not, the supercharger flow is the limiting factor to the top end) then I won't care about the cost, although to be frank I'm still scared to open the receipt folder...

If not then I'll have one of the biggest automotive white elephants ever and I shall not be a happy camper. But then that's one advantage of having professionals do the work rather than trying to put machine tools in the garage - if it doesn't work then they will be fixing it. I already made quite clear that I'll pay market rate but I want top quality work in return.

We'll see. At least all the work is reversible - I could in theory go back to stock

 

[Bugeye58]

Alan, once finished with a project, I hate to do the grand total myself. But, I invariably give in to temptation, and do it anyway.
Having professionals do the work is fine, but I hate to pay someone else to do work that I have the capability of doing myself. Sometimes I may set my standards a bit high, but if I'm doing the work, I have no problems there. Of course there are some things I can't avoid farming out, such as billet cranks, etc, but it sure helps to have friends in the industry.
I'm looking forward to seeing the end product of all your labors.
Keep up the good work.
Jeff

 

[Guest]

Jeff - I agree, I'd rather have done a lot of the work myself. I know my limitations - I can't weld. I don't have the space to pull an engine though where I live (3 cars, 2 convertibles, 2 car garage). HOA with rules about leaving vehicles outside.

With those two limits as a given, it pretty much dictated the rest - the mechanic has to pull the diff to do the welding, so I might as well have the new one in then. Gearbox is out with the engine, so it's almost free for labor (like 2 hours) to get the conversion and the new box in. That's just so worth it compared to me taking a weekend in the summer to do the same.

The trouble is that most of the other stuff I can't do. I can't fabricate an intake manifold (I can't weld remember), don't have a dyno to do the tuning, and the price I'm being charged for the package means that it's not worth the trouble to build a wiring loom for the injectors and sensors and rent a dyno.

Same thing with the supercharger - I don't have any desire to get castings made and have tubing mandrel bent when I can buy something for relatively few $ more (probably less by the time I'm done).

I saw Rick Pattens smpi s/c setup (https://topshamautoparts.com/tr6/) and I can't tell you how impressed I am with his efforts, as he's done it all himself. I don't have access to as many tools though so I'm doing mine by judicious application of greenbacks.

Oh and if you know of somewhere here to get a billet crank at a reasonable price then I'm all ears. It will let me set the rev limiter to a soft 7k instead of soft 6k, hard 6200..
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Bugeye58]

Alan, I don't know what you would consider a reasonable price for a billet crank, but both Ro-Dy and Moldex are close to me. I can check for you. The last one I had done was for a 1500, and was $1800.00. I would imagine that a six would be in the $2500 - $3000 range, but that's only a guess. A friend had one made for a Ferrari V-12. I didn't ask!
I guess I'm just lucky in that I have access to all the major machine tools I need, as well as a complete sheet metal shop owned by a fellow racer. We all help each other out, and there's virtually nothing we can't get done. The biggest problem is finding the opportunity to do it, as work seems to eat up an inordinate amount of time lately.
Jeff

 

[Guest]

I'd consider 2500 to be very reasonable - I'd buy one without even thinking twice at that price. I doubt it will be though.

It was going to be well over 5k delivered from the UK (at 1.9USD:1UKP when I looked). That was the point at which I started looking at the different types of nitriding...

 

[LastDeadLast]

Alan,

Have you checked aptfast.com? Their website catalog is 3 years out of date, but call them to see. If I ever dig into my engine again, it'll be all out like you have. I don't plan to get a blower, but more extensive headwork and a stouter cam would be nice.

 

[Guest]

Shannon - I have their latest catalog somewhere. I don't remember seeing a billet crank in there. I'm pretty sure I'd have remembered if I had.

 

[beez]

Alan,

That's a pretty impressive list. I don't ever plan to go that far, but I am VERY interested to see how it turns out. I would like at some point to beef up my engine with better parts... I think a billit crank would be a bit much for me though! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif