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TR6 Cam and Lifter failure in TR6's

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TheSearcherMan

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Well, a week ago I got my 6 running again with a new cam and lifters. All camshaft recommedations were followed, lubricants, and breakin procedure. After break in, I readjusted the valves. While I had the valve cover off, after adjustment, I started the engine to see if all the lifters were spinning. No, they weren't, 2/8/11/12 were not. I called the supplier, he says rev the engine up to 2500, they still don't spin. Well, he is getting his camshaft and lifters back. This is how we clean up the TR6 parts industry. I don't pay 619 bucks for scrap metal. It either works like they said it would, or they get it back. I would advise everyone to do the same. There are still TR6 cam problems, and, they aren't going away any time soon. I have finally found a regrind in the UK, which, may be ok, or may not be. If it is not right, it's going back. I also got my money back on the first camshaft that failed. I spoke to 2 people in the UK this week, they don't use that cam blank, why not? Because they said it was not hard enough, as the Rockwell tests I had done indicated. There are only 2 blanks being made, 1 in India, 1 in Turkey, in my opinion, both have problems. Kent says they are using the Turkey blank, and there is nothing wrong with it. Kent says the problem is with the way it is being ground. This is not what I was told by 2 shops in the UK. It could be that with these aggressive profiles, the hardness is being ground off, I don't know. Piper won't return my phone calls, about the hardness of the blank they are using, which has to be the Turkey one, because they don't use the India one, because they said they found out what I suspected by looking at it, the hard way, the dist. gear failed. The Turkey blank looks better, gear and lobe alignement wise, however, the shops I spoke to in the UK, use the India blank, and they say they don't have any problems, but this is not what Piper told me. So, as long as suppliers are making money off of us, selling junk, they will continue to do so. It's all about the cabbage. An American supplier like Crane could make a good cam, if we, the owners, demanded a better product. Oh, and if the lifters don't spin, I just don't see how they can last any resonable amount of time. Also, in regards to valve springs, which I will know more about when I receive them. With the 150 HP TR5 CP camshaft, does anybody think the original springs were stiffer, or softer? I will know when I receive them, but I already know, and its susprising. Like I have always said, Triumph knew what they were doing. More to come.
 
Maybe I will just bump the compression and leave the cam as is....
 
Ray, that is what I tried, but my original cam had started to get pitting on two lobes and it was just a matter of time before it failed.
 
I have two engines, a 250 with low miles and a 73 TR6 with high mileage. Fortunately I have enough time to wait and see how you and Bill fair before a decision is needed. So you guys, please drive the heck out of your cars. It will be greatly appreciated because I would like a bit more that a cam can give the car (and I like the sound of a semi radical cam at idle).
 
Some or all of the requirements to promote lifter rotation:
Cam center line is offset from lifter centerline.

Cam lobes are ground with a slight taper front to back.

Lifters are slightly crowned to match the lobe taper.

Cam & lifter hardness must be 58 to 60 RCH.

Lifter bore to lifters must have enough clearance, around .002".

Correct cam & lifter lube & engine oil must be correct.

Valve springs must not coil bind.

Proper break in procedure must be used.

On very first start, before break in, check all lifters for rotation. If some are not rotating, the push rods can be push rotated with a finger to get them started. Once rotation is started keep an eye on it.

It sounds like you may already have done much of this. Just covering all bases.
D
 
The problem is not me, or you. The problem is the product. Does anyone in here believe the factory did a break in on the cams? I doubt it. If you do not follow the break in, the supplier is going to say you ruined the cam, they do not want any idle at all during inital start up. If you told them you idled the engine to check for rotation, they would say, well, there you go, you ruined the cam right there. Anyhow, it doesn't make any difference, the cam and or lifters are the problem. You see, you said what the requirements are, to make lifters spin, now, what do you do if neither of the currently available cam blanks meet the requirements you have listed? Also, I am not going to open a can of worms, but, some people have been led to believe they have one manufactures cam, and they don't, its another manufactures copy, its just a mess. Plain and simple. Thats why I went to great pains to find a stanpart regrind, and, I don't like that either, but, we will see. The question is what would it take to get Crane to make a cam. I don't see the lifters being a problem at this point. Apparently, the evil empire had a bad batch a few years ago, I don't know, and, I think the problem has been the camshafts more so than the lifters. Also, the best cams for street, are either stock, or PI, not all these exotic grinds, which may be part of the problem. Triumph was well aware of the profiles that some are selling now. They compromised, which is what I like to do. You see, anyone these days can obtain a cam grinder, and sell cams, it doesn't mean they know what they are doing. And then, there are these massive pressure hulk like valve springs, that's another part of the problem.
 
TheSearcherMan said:
I don't see the lifters being a problem at this point. Apparently, the evil empire had a bad batch a few years ago, I don't know, and, I think the problem has been the camshafts more so than the lifters.
Click to expand...

You could be right in regards to Triumph as far as camshafts being more of a problem than lifters. However, our lifters were being made by the same foreign companies that were making the solid lifters for companies like Crane and just about every other American camshaft manufacturer.

The hot rod/muscle car crowds have seen a large number of lifter issues but not cam issues. So much so that solid lifters have lost a lot of favor amongst the hot rod/muscle car crowds in favor of roller cams and lifters. So I wouldn't necessarily count out the lifters as a possible cause or contributor. Though I think all of your research and work have proven out the issues with the new camshafts.
 
I am in the process of installing cam and lifters in my TR6 Engine today as part of a total rebuild. I have just joined the forum to get some advice on the cam installation, and came across this. I bought the cam from Moss. What should I look for? They did not supply a break in procedure, but they did give me a copy of the original Stanpart cam drawing.

What should my break in procedure be?

Thanks
Bryan
 
Welcome to the forum Bryan.

My cam from BPNW called for a 20 minute engine run at at a constant 2,500RPMS.

Drain oil, change filter, check valve adjustment and then the machine shop that did the work said to run the car for 800-1,000 miles, then retorque head, adjust valves change oil and filter again.

I believe the key is the right oil and I used Rotella Triple T for the break in and I'll use it for the next 2,000 miles and switch over to Castrol Syntec for classic cars with the right ZDDP and other additives.

Castrol Syntec for Classic Cars

Now get ready for a lot of incoming opinions, all of which have much merit, but the choice will ultimately be yours alone.

My website has a lot of information about my total rebuild if you feel like checking it out. You can start here Block Machining 2008 and follow down the links on left side of each page for the entire engine rebuilding process.
 
Hey Paul;
Fantastic Car. Just went to your web site. Great pics. I need some assistance in getting the Cam lined up. The Moss timing gear set had no marks on either gear. They said to line the gears up with the old ones, which I did. Only problem is the old cam gear had several punch marks, and I did not pay any attention when I stripped the engine down. How do the stock marks line up? There is one very close to the teeth, and one closer to the center of the gear. When I check timing using the mark on the teeth,it is way out.

Bryan
 
Do you have the factory manual for the cam installation procedure? If not, send me a PM with your email address.
 
Well, I'll say this. I had the lube that came with the cam on the lifters and lobes. I had General Motors EOA for lifters and cams, and I had Valvoline VR1 oil,with zinc, it was not a lubrication problem. The cams are junk. Also, I wouldn't use a Moss supplied camshaft if it was given to me, or, even if they paid me, depending on how much. I hope the stanpart regrind I am getting looks good. I'll try to post a picture of my lifters that were torn up, the problem is, the lifters can be so torn up, and you don't realize it. I only pulled mine because of the 3 lifters not spinning, and they were not the torn up ones. I am going to call Crane again next week, I talked to them last week, the person I talked to was very familiar with the TR6 valvetrain. There just is not enough demand. I am going to ask what kind of cabbage it would take for them to make a blank, or a cam. Everyone I have talked to in the US, and UK, has nothing but good to say about Crane products. I also believe that the lifters I had tested, which tested 56 on the Rockwell, still have a problem. However, I don't have enough training or education to say what it is.
 
TheSearcherMan said:
An American supplier like Crane could make a good cam, if we, the owners, demanded a better product. Oh, and if the lifters don't spin, I just don't see how they can last any resonable amount of time.
Click to expand...

Crane may not make one for your engine but there are others.
I suggest that one of you guys contact Dema Elgin:
https://www.elgincams.com/catalog.html
Under "Our Catalog"
Check the first part under Triumph TR2-TR6 profiles about nitriding & lifters.

He is a long time pro at cam grinding & much more, & easy to talk to.

As I said above, even the best setups sometimes need a little help to get the lifters started spinning.
D
 
Dave,

Dema is packing it in and closing shop. That's why I didn't buy from him. He had nothing left and wasn't interested in returning phone calls. I found this out from someone here on the forum who personally knows him and discussed his plans with him.
 
Dave,

I was disappointed too, as he came highly recommended.

PR
 
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